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On set: Season 4 of “Out with Dad”

We first told you about the adorable Canadian web series Out With Dad six years ago. Well it’s been chugging along since then and we were lucky enough to snag an invite onset as they shot for Season 4 in Toronto. What follows are some spoilery photos and an in-depth conversation with series creator Jason Leaver. We discussed the series’ origins, its success, what’s going on with Season 4 and what endgame looks like.

By the way, Jason absolutely is the dad you’d love to come out to, he loves Skins and agrees that Claire (Caitlynne Medrek) is a dead ringer for Emily and he credits our forums (i.e. you!) for helping with his initial research for the series.

Warning: Slight spoilers ahead

AfterEllen.com: Why was Out With Dad a story you wanted to tell? What inspired you?

Jason Leaver: It was eight years ago. I had this dream that I had a baby, and I dreamt that my wife died during childbirth. We weren’t pregnant at the time—this didn’t happen to us. But it was a terrifying dream and for a day, I was lost. I was following my wife around like a lost puppy because I was just so worried that I had lost her. After, I got over that, but the next day was sort of weird because then I was mourning the loss of Rose, this daughter that I actually fell in love with. Which everyone always says like, “Oh you won’t know until you’re a parent.” And I felt like, after that dream, I did know what it was like to be a parent. Like I really felt it.

Then all of a sudden she was gone because she was just in my imagination. And then I was on my way to some boring corporate video shoot. I’m sitting on the subway, and I’m just sort of like thinking about the things that I wouldn’t experience as a dad because she’s gone. It was like super sad. I was just going through all these different scenarios. Things like the first day of kindergarten, tying shoelaces. The one that really made me laugh: “Oh yeah, when she has her first period. Like I have to relearn all that stuff from female biology that I’ve forgotten because I didn’t care after high school.”

And then somewhere in there came her coming out. Then I started thinking about that experience of coming out because that’s something I never had to do. And I started contemplating the challenges that she would have to face that I never had to face. And just me and this dad position, even though I wasn’t a dad, just kind of asking those questions like: “What would I have to think about if my daughter was coming out?” I would really have to think about her experiences, her perspective, and that really hit me.

AE: You told me that as a cisgender, hetero male, it was really important to you to try and tell Rose’s story in the most authentic way possible. That must still be an ongoing journey for you. What’s that process been like?

JL: I was going to direct and produce it, but I started doing all the research and I started writing scenes just as like an example piece for this future writer, whomever it might be. And I figured it would be ideal if this person was a lesbian writer. But then as I just kept writing scenes and writing scenes, in no particular order either—and these scenes ultimately ended up being what is Seasons 2 and 3 post-coming out—I then suddenly realized I had like 60 pages written and I was like, “This is actually—I think it’s okay.” And then a friend of mine, she identifies as lesbian, that I worked with at the time, I just asked her, “Hey, would you mind just reading the script for me?” I was like super nervous.

At this moment, she’s like representing every lesbian on the planet. And she said, “It’s great. I just don’t know how you got it so authentic.” And she said all these nice things and I’m like, “But it’s okay?” And she’s like, “Yes, it’s okay.” I was like, “Wow, okay. Maybe I am a writer.” Because I have a learning disability. Writing is very difficult for me. Since I was a kid I was convinced, “I’ll never be a writer, but I’ll be a director.” And now I’ve decided, “Oh, maybe I am a writer.”

Fast forward through all these years, I continue my research. I had to be authentic. I mean, even right to the day that we released the first episode, I was terrified that I was still doing the wrong thing. But then as many people around me reminded me, no one else was doing it anyway. I didn’t want it to be like, “I’m doing this public service,” but I was at the same time, maybe?

AE: So why do you think the series has been as successful as it’s been? Was it a matter of timing, or the originality of the script?

JL: I think it’s all of the above. Timing for sure, because that was at a time on YouTube where the ecosystem was such that everything was discoverable. I even have data to support this belief. I’ve seen that the discoverability of the show has dropped. And a unique story. And by unique I mean it’s a story that you don’t see in the mainstream—certainly not back then. This is like pre-Glee, pre-Pretty Little Liars. Our web series came along and it also had, not television production value, but a much improved production value from the others. And we’ve continued to grow, I think.

AE: It sounds like YouTube, with it being so youth-driven, really is a perfect platform for Out With Dad.

JL: It’s the right environment for it. And I think that’s partly too because the writing naturally reflects the feedback I’m getting. So that’s why Nathan’s story—it never ended up being 50/50. Like it really is Rose’s story. It’s interesting because this is the fourth season, where now they are older characters and so forth, and I’m finding that it’s actually closer to my original vision. Because it really is much more Rose and dad. And I’m really liking that. But that being said, we’re being funded by the fans of Out With Dad so I consider them the investors. So I wanted to please the investors and they want more of the girls.

AE: How has shooting this season been different from shooting the past three?

JL: Seasons 1 and 2 were really similar in that it was just out of pocket for the love of it. Season 3, of course the audience donated a ton of money and we were able to just shoot it and actually pay ourselves. We were all professionals and we got to book time off work, which is great. This season is different because we are still doing it from the audience, but now we’re doing it on this monthly pay schedule thing through Patreon, which is super amazing. It’s not like the perfect fit for a web series because for a web series, like a feature film, you kind of need all the capital up front and then you can go and shoot. In December, we did sort of do a batch shoot because I was losing Kate [Conway] for a couple of months because she was doing a big backpacking adventure.

For the first half of the season, I would say it felt very different. It felt lower budget. We were limiting each episode to one scene and one location. Two actors. That’s it. And the audience did feel that, but also they were feeling, “I’m only getting eight minutes per month.” There’s other feedback we get where people have clearly binge-watched the season and they’re like, “This is the best season yet.” So now actually moving forward, this may be breaking news because I haven’t really said this to anyone yet, but these episodes we’re shooting now, I’m not going to release them monthly. I’m going to wait until like October to drop them all at once.

AE: Only in October?

JL: I think so, because this is going to be six months’ worth of episodes, but that one episode per month thing is just killing the momentum. So I’m going to say to the audience, “Look, I think this is better for the story that you wait.” That being said, if you’re a patron, you get to have it whenever you want. So I will distribute it as we go. I also feel like some of these episodes, they’re written like episodes but in post I’m going to want to lump them together anyway. So while it might be six months of episodes, it might not be six episodes. It might be three really big ones, or something. I haven’t decided yet. I’ll decide later in October.

AE: It’s amazing that your fans continue to give time and time again.

JL: Yeah. We’re making over $1,500 a month. That’s in US dollars.

AE: I’ve noticed that throughout the seasons you’ve been great at personally engaging with fans online. Why do you do that?

JL: The biggest difference between what we’re doing online and television is that: audience and creator engagement. I want the audience to have a sense of ownership. Like this is a show for them. We’re making it for them.

It all started when the commenters started referencing my name in the comments. That surprised me. So I then started responding in first person. I always encourage the actors to do the same. I love to have that because they’re part of the team that makes the show. They are, in both the literal sense that the audience is funding it, but also like they are influencing the story to a degree. They’re my meter of good or bad, right or wrong.

AE: So for Season 4 you set the series three years in the future. That caught a lot of people off guard. Why that move?

JL: The simplest answer is the cast felt uncomfortable playing that young still. So that is a good reason right there. But also at the time I was developing another project.

The jump forward thing happened because, well for one, I wanted to do an in between, but also, I loved the ending of Season 3. I think it’s the best ending to a series. Like a horrible ending and a wonderful ending. I’m a big fan of that kind of cliffhanger. The main reason for the jump ahead was I wanted to preserve the integrity of that ending and I didn’t want to fill in too many answers with what happened. I loved that ending. I love that it was hard. It is an end to a show and, in a way, this is almost like a new show.

AE: Do you know yet how many seasons you’re thinking of creating for Out With Dad?

JL: If you had asked me that like two years ago, I would have said three. But now I feel like we’ll just keep making them until the fans stop paying for it. I don’t see an end in sight—I see possible ends in sight. Like I have this character arc we’re shooting right now and then I’ve got another arc that I want to do next and I absolutely have no idea what happens after that. The funny thing is, at the end of each of these arcs that I’m envisioning, that too would make a great series finale.

AE: So two or three seasons from now?

JL: I’ve decided to stop counting. It’s just going to be Season 4 forever.

AE: Do you know how you want to wrap up the series?

JL: I have the last line of dialogue. I don’t want to tell it to you because I will cry, but it will make people cry. It is a beautiful, beautiful ending.

AE: Do you have the context around it down?

JL: It’s fuzzy and not clear enough actually. That’s one of the things—I don’t want to force it in. But I think there’s a spot where it could happen and it’s where I get to touch on all the key characters but ultimately bring it to an end that it’s about dad and Rose.

AE: Have you given any thought to endgame? Team Vanessa, Team Claire, or Team Someone Else Entirely?

JL: I know the exact answer to that question. The answer is yes, I have decided. I just realized it is a different answer than what I used to think. When we were shooting season 3 and everything prior to that, I had one answer. I’m just realizing I’m working towards a different answer now.

AE: Have you made a decision between it being Team Claire or Team Vanessa? Is it one of them?

JL: Yeah, I have made that decision.

AE: It’s not Rose and her autonomy, is it?

JL: My feelings were high school sweethearts don’t wind up together. Like that’s just the truth. So the answer was always going to be neither, and so now I’ve sort of changed tones.

I realize I think I’m actually speaking wrong. It’s not necessarily one or the other. You’ve seen how I ended Season 3. I think I would rather leave it on a slightly ambiguous note. I would like to leave it on the note that there’s one possibility, or not.

AE: I hope I didn’t change your answer. Otherwise, I’m going to have a lot of people mad at me. Are you working through it?

JL: I’m actually working through how much do I want you to disclose.

AE: You seem like an ebb and flow kind of guy. Like nothing is set in stone.

JL: That’s an honest answer right there. I certainly have had one opinion that has definitely changed and it could definitely change again. But I feel like I know we’re working towards one of those teams. I feel like that right now.

AE: Your series is so unapologetically Canadian. A lot of projects that shoot here try to hide the fact that they’re shooting in Canada. Why has highlighting Canada and Toronto in particular been so important to you?

JL: I want to show it off. Doesn’t it pain you when you see Toronto not being Toronto? Wouldn’t it be great if in the next Independence Day they nuke the CN Tower too, instead of all these other landmarks? I just love my city and I figure, why not? I’ve now since realized that it’s one of the things actually working for the show. It’s enough for people to be drawn in and want to learn more.

AE: What can fans expect from the rest of Season 4 in terms of storylines? Are you writing month-to-month?

JL: No. So I started out the season month-to-month, and I think that the story suffered for that. The reason I was doing it month-to-month was because I literally didn’t know how much we had to spend on it. So I was just being like super conservative. But then as we started batch shooting, it was like, “Oh now I have to write bigger.” Just knowing what’s coming up does help a lot. I get to set up more and things like that.

So I do know what’s coming up. I know a lot of it’s going to be just what the fans want. It’s going to be a lot of what 50 percent of the fans absolutely don’t want and maybe I’ll have converted. I don’t know.

I’m conscious of what I think the audience wants, but I’m also not going to pander to that either. I do work according to Joss Whedon’s great line where he says, “You’ve got to give the audience what they need, not what they want.” I’m sort of somewhere in between that. Maybe.

AE: Any final messages?

JL: Specifically to the After Ellen gang, it’s just how thankful I am because the show got its jumpstart because of the site. Because we ended up embedding there and according to the data, it showed in the early days of the show that 40 percent of our traffic was watched on AfterEllen.com. So it’s always had a very special place in my heart.

If you are a fan of the show or what we’re doing, even if you don’t watch it, do consider becoming a patron because the show is 100 percent funded by the audience now, which I think is a very beautiful thing. I like that it’s that way. I mean, effectively this is a pay what you can model. If you can’t pay anything, you can still watch the show and I encourage you to do so. And if you can share, share. And I know a lot of our audience, actually, they’re closeted. They aren’t comfortable sharing. So don’t share. We know that you love us and that’s enough. But if you can support us, then do, because then we’ll get to do more.

You can find episodes of Out With Dad at www.outwithdad.com. To donate to the series, visit its Patreon page.

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