Archive

Interview with “Nurse Jackie” creators Linda Wallem and Liz Brixius

Nurse Jackie, starring Edie Falco (The Sopranos) as the complicated, sweet-and-sour title character, has been a surprise hit for Showtime. With its strong female characters and gay-inclusive storylines – one of the lead characters, Mo-Mo (Haaz Slieman), is gay and the show recently featured a lesbian couple played by Swoosie Kurtz and Blythe Danner – the drama has become a favorite with LGBT viewers as well.

A big part of Nurse Jackie’s progressive recipe for success are its co-creators and co-show runners, Linda Wallem and Liz Brixius – who also just happen to be out lesbians.

We spoke to both of them about writing gay storylines, where Nurse Jackie is headed in its second season, and how they’ve fared as out lesbians in entertainment.

AfterEllen.com: Congratulations on the success of Nurse Jackie. Only two days after its premiere episode, it was picked up for a second season!

Linda Wallem: We were thrilled! That never happens. I’ve been working in TV for a long time. They just did the mother of all promotions for it and the day after it aired we were so happy. We were hoping they’d pick us up maybe a month after. But two days after, that’s thrilling.

We’re just over the moon. We can’t believe we’re working with Edie Falco and the stories we get to tell…and Showtime has been just amazing. We have to pinch ourselves! We get to do Season Two with these characters, and we have the greatest writers…I don’t know, I just can’t believe it.

AE: What about Nurse Jackie makes you the most proud?

LW: The thing I’m most proud of is that when me and Lizzie and Edie and her manager, Richie Jackson (who now is an executive producer on the show) sat down together and said, “Let’s do this.” And we dreamed what it would be. We looked at each other at the end and said “It’s even better than we thought.”

And I’m proud that we all stuck to our guns in terms of the integrity of the stories we wanted to tell and not get network-y about it.

Liz Brixius: I’m proud that it’s a show centered around a really fascinating, complicated woman in her 40s.

Most of the medical shows out there are male-centric, or hot young 20-year olds saving lives. This is just one of the greatest actors of our generation, and the show is built around her. Everybody who works on that show works at such a high caliber because of her, and it’s a cool, smart show that, in my opinion, reflects what’s going on in the real world.

It’s not a fantasy show. We have a crumbling health care system, and this is a show about the crumbling health care system. People overextend themselves, and Jackie overextends herself. People try to be good mothers, and be good nurses and be good people. But the reality is, we’re all really flawed. And Edie handles it beautifully.

AE: You don’t hear those stories very often in television, where creators truly have the freedom to make exactly what they want and it comes out even better than expected.

LW: And that’s a big hats off to Bob Greenblatt (Showtime President of Entertainment) and to Showtime. They are just the most supportive network in the world, and he specifically gives very smart, thoughtful notes. And it’s not done by committee. I did network TV for years and you’d be on the phone with 30 people, all just trying to justify their jobs!

But with Bob, they have a co-production with Lionsgate and they have this beautiful system. It all goes through Bob, and then Bob gives us notes on everything. He’s a big reason why it’s so good.

AE: Can you give us any hints as to what we can expect on the season finale, or even in the second season?

LW: All I can say is that I think by the end, people are going to just say, “Oh my God!”

One of my favorite things is that we have Wendy (Melvoin) and Lisa (Coleman), who do our music. We love them and still can’t believe we have them. They’re just geniuses.

One of the most fun things was when Lizzie and I went over to their studio and we had just finished shooting and brought the last four episodes over and sat there and watched them with Wendy and Lisa. They hadn’t seen them and hadn’t scored them yet.

So we’re sitting there and Lisa’s jaw is on the floor and Wendy is saying, “Jackie! No!” It was hilarious and thrilling to see their reactions.

So I’ll just say that the last four episodes kind of blew Wendy and Lisa’s heads off, and I think they will for everyone else too. I don’t want to give anything away, but it’s great. And it sets us up beautifully for what’s going to happen in season two.

LB: There are lots of close calls, and there are consequences. All of season one has been a high-wire act and a juggling act and she hasn’t stumbled at all. Well, she stumbles.

AE: Part of why the show is great is because of the quality of the writing. It’s rare that you get TV (or films) with truly great writing. What other writers or shows have influenced your own writing?

LW: We have an amazing small group of writers. We have Rick Cleveland, who won an Emmy for The West Wing, Christine Zander who I’ve known for years. She comes from 30 Rock, and she did the Ab Fab pilot this year, which was great. I was sad it didn’t go, but glad we got her back. We were all at Carsey-Werner together, where I worked on Cybill and That ’70s Show.

We have Liz Flahive, who has never done TV or movies before but she’s this gorgeous playwright from New York. And the beautiful Mark Hudis. I worked with him on Cybill and That ’70s Show. He’s one of the best writers I know, and I can’t believe we got him for this show.

We also have Jennifer Hoppe and Nancy Fichman – two more lesbians. (We have a lot of lesbians in the room.) They’ve done features and I say they’re the best kept secret in Hollywood. They’ve written all these beautiful features but nothing was produced yet, and they’re just geniuses. So we have this really great eclectic group of writers and we all make each other laugh a lot. But we also test each other and challenge each other to tell stories and make the kind of show that we’d want to watch.

LB: I love writing, and I love writers. I studied poetry for five years, I taught poetry at the University of Massachusetts for five years, so the writers that I love are not screenwriters or television writers. I love playwrights. I love Harold Pinter, and I love Eugene O’Neill. I love Anne Sexton, the poet, Elizabeth Bishop, the poet.

Linda brings to this 20 years of television, so she knows how television runs, and I know poetry and plays. So you end up with Nurse Jackie, a very savvy TV show with a very poetic heart.

Linda has a poetic heart too, all of our writers do. But that’s where I live. There’s that line in the show where she [Jackie] says “Quiet and mean, those are my people.” I would say “Poets and playwrights, those are my people.”

AE: How did you two become writing partners?

LW: We were actually girlfriends (laughs).

AE: Of course you were! You’re lesbians!

LW: Then we did Insatiable together, which was this pilot for Showtime. And, unfortunately, after that we broke up. But we stayed together writing. Then we did another pilot for Showtime which didn’t go. It was the Untitled Cougar Project (laughs), we were the first one on that wave, then Nurse Jackie happened.

So that’s what happened. We were girlfriends, we broke up, but we stayed together writing and it’s a perfect partnership.

AE: So remaining friends with your girlfriend can sometimes turn out to be a good thing.

LW: Yes! It can be tricky, but we worked it out.

AE: So about the Untitled Cougar Project…

LW: Oh my god, it was so naughty! When I worked on that ’70s Show, I said, “What if I had been straight and had run that ’70s Show, but I had an affair with Ashton (Kutcher) when he was 15?” That was the whole idea of the show. But no, the lead of the show, at that point, he was like 17, but this woman who was in her 30s had this affair with him.

Again…we’re just glad that Nurse Jackie came along (laughs).

AE: Do you pitch shows together too?

LW: Yeah, we do everything together. We’re both showrunners, we’re both producers. She’d never done TV before, but she’s a natural at it.

AE: It must be nice to work with a crew of other lesbians.

LW: It’s fascinating. We joke about our crew in New York. We have a bunch of what we call the “hardy straight girls.” You assume that they’re gay, but they’re not. (laughs)

And Richie (Jackson) is gay, so we have another gay executive producer. John Melfi was our executive producer last year, who I’d worked with on The Comeback, and he did Sex and the City. So a lot of the straight crew is like, “Wow, this is a really gay, female kind of show…” But it was the nicest, calmest, happiest set. Anyone will tell you, we had a great, great time.

AE: Plus, lesbians get things done!

LW: Right! And with 19 years in TV, I had the advantage of having learned what not to do. So I kept thinking, “I can’t wait until it’s my show, because it’s gonna be a fun party.

AE: How did the storyline for Coop’s lesbian moms (played by Blythe Danner and Swoosie Kurtz) come about?

LW: We kept thinking that we want a lesbian couple in this, how’s it going to be? Then Rick Cleveland shared a personal story about when his parents split up and his mom was with another woman. He adored this other woman. And it’s kind of his true story about the women who raised him.

LB: That’s what I want to grow up to be. I want to be Blythe Danner and Swoosie Kurtz. I want a relationship like that. Two lovely ladies who are just ladies in the world, just a couple of gals.

I remember when I was in high school seeing an article about San Francisco in Time or Newsweek, and there was a shoot of two women walking down the street, presumably on their lunch breaks, wearing work clothes like anybody wears in the accounting department. And they were holding hands. I suddenly felt there was nothing exceptional about them, they didn’t have cool hair or great boots or tattoos or any of the things that are kind of exciting and dazzling about early 80s lesbians. They were just two women who could blend into any crowd and loved each other.

Because I’m not a showy person, I’m too conventional. I’m never going to have a tattoo, I’m never going to be pierced, I’m never going to be radical, I’m never going to be cool. So I loved these women, because I was like, “I want to be like that. There’s room for me. There’s nothing visually exceptional about me or overtly political about me. I just want to live my life quietly. Equally.”

That’s what I love about Blythe and Swoosie. Like you can be a lady who lunches, you know? And still be gay. And that gave me so much hope when I saw that picture.

LW: Liz and I both wanted a normal lesbian couple on the show, because we think they’re wonderful. We’re totally bringing them back again, if we can get them, because we adore them, and they [Kurtz and Danner] are best friends in real life. So they were wonderful. And without giving anything away, there’s going to be more fun gay surprises this year.

AE: Fun gay and lesbian surprises?

LW: Yes! (laughs) It’s gay goodness coming down the pike on this show. I don’t want to give anything away, but keep watching because if everything works out, it’s going to be pretty f—ing great.

Why am I saying “f—ing” a lot today? I guess I’m a Merchant Marine. (laughs)

AE: When you’re pitching lesbian characters or storylines, is it different pitching to the networks versus pitching to a cable entity like Showtime?

LB: I hope I don’t offend anyone when I say that I never work with a lesbian agenda in mind. I just pitch the characters that are in my heart. If they’re gay they’re gay, and they’re not, they’d better be gay-friendly or I’m going to kick them out of my head!

That’s why I loved that picture when I was 18-years old and why I love Blythe and Swoosie. We’re all just people. We all have the right to fly our freak flags, or just put them in our purse. We need tolerance for all of us.

LW: Bob Greenblatt is gay, so there’s never any fear about pitching anything gay at Showtime. It’s so gay friendly.

I’ve had it in the past though, it’s been tricky.

I wrote a sitcom for Melissa Etheridge about five years ago. We’re pretty good friends and we’d sold it to ABC, and then unfortunately she got sick with breast cancer. But then we came back and she was doing better, but they ultimately passed on it. It was always a little tricky, with the gay part of it. Everyone always loved Melissa, but it was always like “(nervous laughter) I don’t know…”

But they were very enthusiastic about it…and had she not been sidelined with the breast cancer, we would’ve shot it. But Melissa and I look back and realize it was a blessing we didn’t do it. She won an Oscar and had twins. And my road led me to Nurse Jackie.

AE: When you say it was tricky, can you tell us more about what it was like for you?

LW: It did come back to me at one point that ABC thought it was “too gay.” And I was like, “What is too gay?” I don’t get that. And I think it was okay when it was Will and Grace, and its two guys and it’s a little clowny.

But what we were doing…It was as if Melissa hadn’t left Kansas and hadn’t become famous. Because I asked her one day, “What would have happened if you hadn’t become famous, and you hadn’t become a rock star?” And she said, “I would have probably been a music teacher and stayed in Kansas.” So it was based on that.

It was great, and I was really proud of that. And the good news is that we’re still really good friends and we’re working on other stuff. But at the time, I can remember pitching it at the networks and there was just this nervousness. They all wanted to meet Melissa, then it was just (laughs nervously), you know, that kind of laugh?

AE: Do you ever see yourself trying to resuscitate that project, if not for her then maybe for someone else?

LW: Yeah, possibly. But I think it would be really hard for me to go back to doing sitcoms after doing The Comeback and this show, because it really is like doing a mini-movie.

I had a blast doing Cybill and That ’70s Show, but it would be hard to go back to that format for me because now its much more cinematic and much more…I don’t know…maybe it’s a movie now. Now you’ve got me thinking!

I thought it was great though, and Melissa and I laugh about it. We were meant to be friends and we’re working on a musical for Broadway for right now.

AE: Can you tell us more about that?

LW: It’s still top secret. I can tell you that it is going to be fantastic. But you will be the first to know!

The other great thing is that she’s a big fan of Nurse Jackie, I show her episodes before they air and she just loves the show, and that makes me really happy.

AE: do you ever feel that you faced discrimination or even just disinterest professionally because you’re an out lesbian?

LW: You know what…it’s funny. I started 19 years ago, and my wonderful agent, Joe Cohen. I was one of his first clients and I hadn’t come out to him then, because it was the early ’90s and I was so nervous about it all. So I finally came out to him and it was so great. He said, “Linda, use it to your advantage. I think people in TV will love that.”

And I love that he told me that. I was new in Hollywood in the early ’90s and there was still some homophobia, and there were some guys I had worked with that I didn’t care to share that with because, you know…

I don’t know. Maybe being a lesbian in TV, people look at you like you fit into the boys club a little. Actually, I think it’s an advantage because it is such a male-dominated industry. I think that’s why straight men love lesbians, because we can be great friends. And I think the crews really respect that. The people I’ve worked with, I’ve been really lucky. I have not felt the discrimination…at least not that I know of. Oh God, maybe people were talking about me! (laughs)

AE: There are people in the entertainment industry (some of whom are already out themselves) who still advise performers or those who are in other aspects of the industry not to come out professionally because it will hurt their careers and put them in the “gay entertainment ghetto.” (In fact, just recently there was a controversy over this in relation to some of Todd Holland’s alleged comments at Outfest.) What do you think about that attitude?

LW: It’s astonishing. I’ve noticed that in the last couple of months, a few friends whose managers have told them “Oh don’t do this, you shouldn’t be out.” It’s like, wow, what year is this? It just throws me. I think that’s really sad that even still out there…and again, being friends with Melissa, I joke and say that she’s on the lesbian dollar bill! She’s the face on that.

She’s just so wonderfully, beautifully out with her family and Tammy and all of that. And she’s just been such a role model for everybody, and I spend time with them and see how the world treats them. So when I hear that stuff, I just think it’s so sad. I don’t know why that’s still perpetuated. It’s puzzling to me because I feel that we’ve come so far.

AE: Well, you’re proof that it’s not true, you’ve always been out and you’re successful.

LW: Yeah, and now with the show, I’m in a position that people can ask me. Because you know, before…I’ve done many pilots, but nothing ever went before. So nobody really cares about the co-executive producer who is gay.

And speaking of gay people, you know Nurse Thor on the show?

AE: Yes.

LW: That’s my little brother, Steve. He’s gay too. We’re two out of three in our family! I told him though, “What good are you? You can’t blow dry my hair.” He’s not good with the hair.

AE: He’s not that kind of gay?

LW: No, he’s not that kind of gay. But he’s adorable on the show.

AE: For those of our readers who have an interest in getting into the entertainment industry, what would you tell them about being out professionally and about of writing for television?

LW: Well, first of all, good writing is good writing. And usually, if you’re going into a meeting, it’s not about your sexuality, it’s about your point of view. Period. And just own that, no matter what it is.

For years, I was on so many different shows, and you kind of have to write in the voice of whoever created the show. But the thing that will get your attention, whether it’s in a spec script or a screenplay, is your truth. What is the unique story that you can tell? It might be just your story of growing up, it might be a gay story or it might not. But whatever it is, really dig deep. Don’t try to write like anyone else. Write your own unique point-of-view.

LB: Your ability to succeed is directly related to your ability to hear the word “no” than they can say it to you. Eventually, someone will say “yes.” You just have to persevere.

Here you go: George Foreman was the heavyweight champion of the world when he was 44-years old. It’s not because he was a superior boxer, it was because he could take a punch. You just have to keep going. Don’t stop.

AE: What do you think about the current state of representation of lesbians in film and TV? The L Word is gone now, and regardless of what you thought about it….

LW: Oh I totally watched it! I’m very sad it’s gone. I can’t believe there aren’t more shows like that. I’m kind of puzzled by that, and I’m hoping that will change. We’re doing our little part and I don’t want to give anything away, but…we’re doing our part. (laughs)

AE: If there’s anything you could change about lesbian representation in pop culture, what would it be?

LB: I like it when lesbians and gays are integrated into the stories rather than being like the sensational little bit about them. I don’t like it sensationalized, because I don’t think its scandalous or sensational. I think its everyday life.

The heart wants what the heart wants. Let that be a universal truth.

LW: Even shows like CSI, I watch them and think, “How much better would this show be if there was a lesbian couple in it?” I mean, my God! Gay or straight, couples are the same. How exciting would that be? Let’s spice this up and make it more interesting.

I’m so bored by television and by all of the traditional relationships that you see. I mean, nothing shakes it up like a good lesbian, you know? (laughs)

Like Top Chef, which I’m addicted to, I saw on your site that there are two new lesbians on this season. I love that, and I always root for them.

I wish TV writers would open it up more and not be afraid of it. It would be hilarious and wonderful.

AE: Imagine if Marg Helgenberger on CSI played a lesbian. How great would that be?

LW: Oh my God, I’d redo all the episodes. But I’d still make her a stripper. You remember, in the beginning, that story?

AE: Oh, I remember! Well, in summation, is there anyone you’re dying to work with, or any dream projects you have in the works or would like to have in the works?

LB: Edie Falco for the rest of my life, that’s who I’m dying to work with. I’ve never seen anything like it and I don’t think I will again.

LW: You know, it sounds corny, but I’m doing it now. Working with Edie is such a dream and I’m really hoping this musical I’m doing with Melissa is gonna be what we think it’s gonna be. So I guess I’m lucky enough to say that I’m kinda doing it!

Hey, can I throw one more lesbian tidbit out there?

AE: Please do!

LW: Melissa invited me to the studio last weekend. She’s doing her new album, and it’s going to be so f—ing amazing. This music is gonna blow people away. The new album is gonna be remarkable.

She and Tammy have these twins now. I have to say, I live vicariously through them because I don’t have kids, and they are the most amazing mothers, the most amazing family I know. The kids are just so loved and so magical. I always tease Melissa, “You know, you have four kids now!” and she says, “I know! I don’t know how this happened!”

She’s like the sister I never had. So I just want to put a plug in there that people are going to be so excited by this new album.

AE: It’s nice when you get to succeed alongside your friends, isn’t it?

LW: It sure is.

Lesbian Apparel and Accessories Gay All Day sweatshirt -- AE exclusive

Related Articles

Leave a Reply

Back to top button