This is a very interesting topic to me. I am white. I am however, what is now euphemistically referred to as a "masculine-identified" lesbian. I have been a lesbian since childhood LOL, and was always a butch lesbian, but I do not have a gender issue. I no longer live in the US. However in my community there seems not to be very many butch lesbians, but bio grrls who are transitioning. What happened to the plain, old, chain-wallet wearing, tattooed, chivalrous, butch?

It has always confused me how the gay rights and the transgendered rights movement has consolidated together.  Since gay rights seems to be based around the concept that love is love and that gender doesn't matter, while transgendered rights is based around the concept that gender is crucially important.  A drag show is amazing because it is all about performance.  It becomes overt how we create our gender identities.  Yet, we live in a culture where all the solutions to our problems lie in drugs and science.  It can solve all of our problems.  Instead of seeing gender as fluid and open, people desire to see it as static.  Look at all these high school girls on these forums.  There seems to be endless comments by young femme girls insulting butch identity because they say a butch woman isn't acting like a women.  The only way to be a woman is to follow societal norms.  You should wear make-up and have long hair.  It is a very sad state of affairs for the gay community, when young girls are coming out younger and younger, but they think that the only real gays are the 'normal' looking ones.  Being gay should mean making the world open and accepting of difference.  We cannot let our community stop accepting this fluidity.  That comment might seem antithetical to my statement about the correlation of the trans and gay community, but I would never take away a trans persons rights.  I believe in their right to choose what to do with their bodies.  I do not believe that the gay rights movement is the same.  They can both support one another, but just because you're butch doesn't mean you're trans and it should never be that way.  Why there seems to be a movement away from butch identity, I don't know, but it is very sad that that should happen.  Just to qualify this, I am not butch, but I am pretty dykey.

..but a teeny tine no doubt evil part of me is glad to see the young ones insisting so stridently on long hair and dresses. See, I'm far older, and remember all too way that when I was their age, the opposite prejudice was in effect, and still is in some places. I was ostrasized for years - decades, really - for being too femme, and for only being interested in femme dates. Thus, like the original poster, I was somehow not officially gay, although I have even less erotic interest in men than I do in butch women. I just don' t find butch sexy, on anybody. This does not, by the way, imply - and never did - any rejection of men or butch women, for that matter, as people. I've always had friends in both catagories, even back in the day when I was so often persona non grata. (Persona is right...)

But the better part of me, now older and wiser, realizes that of course you are right, that we should all just be ourselves, and accept others as they are, or want to be, with out imposing any restrictions or superficial judgements. It's a beautiful dream, and harder than it would seem at first to realize. People are so conditioned to group think; to desperately try to push themselves into a group identity, be it the large "male/female" groupings, or smaller subgroups. I used to think that gay people, having been pushed out of the larger conformist culture, would be more likely than others to embrace and celebrate individuality and difference. Sadly, this has not always been the case, but people do seem to be coming around. Perhaps - I'd like to think - the new emphasis, really just beginning, among the very young in favor of a traditional feminine appearance is just a necessary overreaction, and in the end, things will be more open for all of us.

 Though as the original poster pointed out - in certain segments of the black community, the original gay=butch paradigm is alive and well, and even growing more strong, perhaps in part due to the influence of hip hop culture. Certainly when I was young, the black community was more inclined to explain my hair etc. as "bisexual". This was how they could understand it, the bag they could put me in. Now, apparently, for some even that is not enough. The original poster was too femme to be bi. So we still have a long way to go...

...perhaps your husband would be more likely to believe your bi if, instead of having to "butch things up", you were to sleep with a woman?

Though that would be wrong...It would get the point across.

Bad me.

I am multiracial, predominantly B/W, and live near Detroit. I can vouch for the predominance of butches among Black women, mostly imitating male thugs. It's not an attraction for me -- if I want a man, I'd get a man -- but I think it helps with visibility.

The Lesbian culture in our area tends to overlook anyone femme, because the visual cues aren't there. Therefore, for the butch women of both races, I think it's about gender and visibility.

I also think there's an aspect of perceived strength that comes with butch identity, which leaves femmes as the stereotypical girlie-girl that won't break a nail. Both assumptions can be false.

I think you should take a cue from the new-skool Lesbians and rock androgynous. If you feel you look good and are comfy with the visual cues you're projecting, that's what's important. Mix it up -- you can have a butch hairstyle, say, and wear nail polish. Or wear heels with your jeans.

I think it's important that we render these visual cues obsolete. I had a girlfriend that used to look around us when we were out and bemoan the lack of Lesbians. I asked her, why did she assume everyone was straight? I asked her to test herself by assuming everyone was Gay unless they were obviously hetero. It was an interesting way to view the world!

Good luck!

I don't really agree, I feel like femininity is equally represented. It is just more difficult to connect with gay women when you/they don't wear your sexual identity on your sleeve. Or, I should say, embody the stereotype of your sexual identity. I suppose that being married complicates things a bit. I do think there are plenty of femme identified black women out there. The younger Black gay community seems entrenched in the Femme-Stud/Ag culture right now. The only thing that bothers me is that there is an archaic presumption that a woman is either one or the other. This may be cliché but it is much more attractive when a person is true to themselves.

I get things like, why do you dress like a boy, you're too pretty to, and stupid statements like that, and it's like, I've always been me, I've always been a tomboy, me being a stud and dressing like one is what's comfortable.  Plus, when I'm out with a girl, guys don't seem to care that we're "together" especially when I'm dressed like a femme on occasion.. they don't take me seriously, and sometimes that makes me over emphasize my own masculinity even tho, that's not really who I am.

It's easier for me to find someone when I'm dressed like a stud b/c most girls automatically know, with femmes, it's hard, sometimes you can't tell, and most girls don't appreciate you coming at them like that, even if you do so in the most polite way, so maybe I can call it a safe guard.

As far as hip hop, I myself am a rapper, yes i've done shows and yes I portray many of my male counterparts, but that's just me, I feel sexy in men's clothes, some girls don't, there's nothing wrong with it, but I find myself most confident with my hair down and a hat on with some baggy shorts and a wife beater, I don't try to make any statements, I just want to be able to be comfortable in my own skin.

For lesbian/bi women who are not white, I think it's harder on some levels and we kind of have a longer way to go to fit in.. It's sad to me when femmes say that if you're a stud/butch whatever then you aren't acting like a woman... The way I dress doesn't define how much of a woman I am, not matter what people say, the way i dress has nothing to do with my heart and the way i treat female, I may be a stereotype on the surface, but I know I broke the mold with what's inside.

~I got that remedy~

I agree with some of the things Tov has said, particularly that masculinity is overvalued among blacks. I think we are one of the--if not the--most sexist "cultures." I honestly haven't thought enough about the value of certain sexes and its connection to black butches/studs, although there probably is one. I would also agree that, as I understand Tov, there is probably more diversity among black lesbians than we see. I think this is partially because we're not like white lesbians--coming out is different for us, and a lot of us aren't as willing to run around out, pushing for gay rights and just generally being visible. I'm gathering that, at least for some black lesbians, they have a more masculine appearance when they are okay with being identified as a lesbian or bi, or to be more easily identified, hence the original post in the first place. The more feminine black lesbians might be closeted a lot of the time (I know I basically am). The only thing about white lesbians is we can at least turn on the TV and see a few out feminine bisexual and lesbian celebrities whereas we're not getting that with black bisexuals and lesbians, adding to people thinking we're all butch.

The way I have traditionally thought about it, though, and a point that others haven't mentioned or maybe don't recognize it: white women are considered more feminine than black women are by default. So maybe there's a double standard going on here. I see tons of butch white women and rarely see out white lesbians I would consider femme in everyday life (not TV). I see a lot of "in between" (and I put it like that because I'm not sure "androgynous" is the right word for them) white women whom I usually can still tell are lesbians or wouldn't be surprised to learn they are lesbians or bi. I would kind of say the same for black lesbians--many butch ones, many in-between ones, hardly any out feminine ones. However, black lesbians end up the ones stereotyped most as all being butch, although I would say reactions to nyte's sexual orientation and gender expression happen to any femme or more feminine lesbian/bisexual. I don't think that's about race.

However, understand that, aside from how you dress and hairstyles, things like attititude, the way you carry yourself, the way you speak, size/body type, skin color, facial features and hair texture all go into how your femininity is assessed, even for heterosexual women. We've all grown up hearing about "tall, dark and handsome" applied to men--well, there you go. Being dark is considered more masculine, so right off the bat black women have that strike. Apparently, there is a stereotype out there among some people of the white lesbian with curly/wavy hair, I'd guess because straight hair is considered most feminine...which would knock a lot of black women out, too, if that's the case. In fact, most black lesbians I know of have natural or more Afrocentric hairstyles. Then our body builds--I see more black women with muscle tone or muscle, curves and just larger bodies whereas a lot of white women have smaller bones/builds. And then black women demonstrate more strength, and that's considered masculine as well. A lot of us try to talk and act "hard," many of us have lower voices than white women, we have that "attitude" stereotype and so on. So in the subsconscious of a lot of people's minds, there's almost no such thing as a feminine black woman, regardless of sexual orientation--it's an oxymoron, essentially--and that makes it easier for a black lesbian to be seen as or automatically labeled butch, especially if the more stereotypically feminine black women are invisible among gays and gay representation.

That said, I don't get the need some women feel to act out just to make people believe their sexual orientation. Obviously, this acting out is one reason why we don't see much diversity among black lesbians. Do what you want--if you want people to believe you're bi, that's up to you how to convince them; if you want to show diversity or embrace the fact that you defy a stereotype, that's up to you. To me, I wonder who cares whether or not people--especially heterosexuals, since you're not trying to date them (you because you're married, lesbians because they're trying to date women and need women to believe they're available to them)--believe your orientation?   

I think the problem with butch/femme (or stud/femme, although i HATE the word 'stud') in the black community isn't that there's a disproportion of butches to femmes, but that people feel the need to conform to one extreme or the other. If you're caught wearing girl jeans one day and timbs and a fitted the next, people wanna say your'e switchhittin or flipfloppin or whatever term they use. back before all the girls got into this 'Party like a rockstar' bullshit most girls were still wearing bigass pants and J's and throwbacks or whatever, and i was wearing vests and stuff and therefore (not like i set out to impress) was not noticed by gay black people because i didn't fit the femme, and i didn't look hard enough to be a stud.

let's not even get into why black butches won't date other butches, and why they think it's nasty.

I got a dick like a mule...with a big dick.

Seriously. What the hell does he know about what women find attractive?

Ok, butch women are much more readily identifiable on the street, and that's the stereotype that fits with lesbianism. How many femme women are running around out there that your husband doesn't realise are dykes/bi too? Including a senior female member of your govt, if the rumours are true. Of course, we all know that lesbians (and bi women) run the gamut of "masculine" to "feminine".

Yep, some people in the dyke community buy into a look because they think they have to (I'm not familiar with the African-American queer community), but hopefully the ones who learn who they really are grow out of it. For you, don't buy into it. Present yourself how you want to, and I'll bet those butches and lipstick lesbians will fall all over you. As long as you're getting the right kind of interest from the right people, it doesn't matter what your hubby thinks you should look like to be a real bisexual woman.

And, hey, if you're not getting women asking you out because they aren't sure, ask them out. Easy. (Also, it cracks me up how some of these supposedly tough women don't like asking out someone who looks too femme - me, I assume every woman is available until I learn otherwise).

Also, didn't Audre Lorde have a lot to say about not looking like a "real" dyke? Perhaps you should try reading Zami for a look at that issue from the perspective of the past.

Where I am, you can only be accepted as gay from other gay people is if you're just a little butch. Which I am not, I like rock my heels and get my hair done. I'm a feminine girl. Now, that I've been out for 2 years, only one of my gay friends still doesn't believe that I'm a lesbian just because I'm too girly among other factors.

Yesterday during a tornado drill, some friends and I were joking about gaydars and 
she turned to me and said, "You know Kendra, I was really shocked when you told us you
were a lesbian, because I thought that they were all manly"

I'd date both studs and femme, to me, it's all about chemistry rather than instant attraction.
While, I know girls who'd only date studs, because feminine girls are nasty. 

Now maybe I'm not in "the swirl" these days, but I thought part of demanding the "straight world" to accept us, meant first accepting ourselves no matter how we come or what label we choose to carry. Since the dawning of time, Black lesbians have felt the need, nay the desire to show men (especially) that we can and will take care of our women, as a result this meant meeting them on their "turf"...the butch domain. Studs/Butches/Bull Daggers (whatever) were our protecters, our "men" for lack of a better term. Current times dictate that women no longer need that sort of protection, but for some of us (those who who would never dare to "be" with a genetic man), a butch woman is the stuff of dreams. She is strong (mental/physical/emotion/financial or any combination thereof), it is she that we, as femmes, look to as our "rock". I have always loved butch women, another femme just confuses me (hahahahaha). I do appreciate beautiful women, but only a handsome, arrogant, intelligent butch woman can affect me like... like the creation of the stars in heaven...it is monumental.

 ~ the goddess M

I've always hated feeling like I needed to "fit" into some tired old stereotype of what a queer woman (esp. Black) needed to "look" like or "be"....

I just became comfortable enough in my own body in the last few years to rock some serious ink!

I didn't come out of the closet, just to go into a deeper one marked "image" or "presentation"

Sincerely,

A Proud Non-Conformist

Skimming through all these comments I feel as though a line gets blurred between "personal preference" and the reinforcing of "socially-constructed (and essentialist) gender roles" 

... 

This notion of "I want my women to look like women and not men" is a weird, problematic combination of these two ideas; while it's a personal preference to like "feminine women" it's gets to be an "issue" (for me) when someone says, "I want a "woman who looks like a woman;" for starters: what does that mean, what does a woman look like? (or what is she supposed to look like?) and doesn't this all just replicate and reinforce dichotomous gender roles within the category of "women" (whoever we are.) ...As if we're supposed to be either a butch or a femme...there's a whole spectrum of gender and sexual identities /(orientations) out there in this world and I embrace the very different and unique expressions out there!

It makes the world a better place! 

...And yes, I am "thatfemmegirl" and I am a (queer) femme who primarily dates and is attracted to butches and female masculinity in all it's wonderful forms! :)

...And to ABSTRACT.NORMALITY, no I don't see butches (or those lesbians who dress in "masculine" clothing) as "men," so you have at least one ally in that department!

I think there are tons of clicks in the community.I'm attracted to boyish looking girls.I also have freinds who fit that, but they still want to be women or date women.I personally need some one diffrent from  me in thought.I love the spectrem of diffrent lesbians in the  community.Personally I love the rock star....so cool.Or the stud or andro its just who I'm atraced too. 

"Has anyone seen Shane's Vagina?I think she dropped it somewhere." L word

I prefer stud but do not care too much for the labels. But it is very existent in other women of color and white women as well. But I believe it is this wierd stereotype that all african american women are "Studs" that is so not true. But I believe with the lack of "Femme" african american images in our society that this image out wieghs the others. I believe that is simply wrong and all different dynamics to the lesbian culture should be addressed and not one should out wiegh the other.

Stuck in Texas wish I was elsewhere