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Orthodox Jews protest gay prideWow, just wow. It's amazing something like this can happen in a first world nation such as Israel. Further, by a people who have been oppressed and hunted for their own beliefs. ------------ [b:f763be042e]Orthodox Jews protest gay pride[/b:f763be042e] JERUSALEM (AP) -- Israel's attorney general refused to ban a gay pride parade in Jerusalem despite threats of violence from ultra-Orthodox Jews, instructing police and gay activists to try to work out a compromise, the police commander said Sunday. A Justice Ministry statement said Attorney General Meni Mazuz ordered police to meet with gay activists "to work out a reasonable alternative proposal" for the march, set for Friday on a route through the middle of the city. The meeting is to take place Monday, gay activists said, and a compromise was likely. Ultra-Orthodox Jews have rioted in Jerusalem nearly every night over the past week, burning garbage cans, blocking roads and assaulting police officers in an attempt to get the authorities to call off the march, approved months ago by the Supreme Court. Many religious Jews, Muslims and Christians see homosexuality as a sin and the march as an affront to the sanctity of the holy city. Police said Sunday that the danger of violence was too great to allow the march to proceed, but left the final decision to Mazuz. "We understand that the potential danger to life and bloodshed is greater than that to free speech," said police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld. Ella Canetti, one of the organizers of the gay pride march, said they would meet police on Monday and were willing to be flexible. "We are prepared to alter the route of our march to meet police concerns," she told The Associated Press. "According to what we understand, a modest gay pride march will take place in Jerusalem." After meeting Mazuz, Jerusalem police commander Ilan Franco said, "It may be that there will be a march and a closing event at place which both sides decide is reasonable and minimizes potential damage and danger." But it was unclear whether such a compromise would satisfy the ultra-Orthodox Jewish opponents. At last year's march, an ultra-Orthodox man stabbed and wounded three participants. There was some dissent Sunday among gay activists. Saar Nathaniel, a gay member of Jerusalem's City Council and one of the march's planners, suggested Sunday that gay activists cancel the march in return for ultra-Orthodox members of parliament supporting gay rights legislation. A gay columnist in the liberal Haaretz daily called on organizers to show sensitivity for Jerusalem's special status as a city holy to three faiths and move the march to the more permissive Tel Aviv. Jerusalem police said six policemen have been hurt in the clashes over the past week and 60 rioters have been arrested. Over the weekend, the disturbances spread outside Jerusalem to the ultra-Orthodox city of Bnei Brak, near Tel Aviv, where rioters blocked one of Israel's main highways with burning tires. [url=http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/05/jerusalem.gaypride.ap/index.html]Link to Article[/url] Submitted by Harpy, Moderator (9130 posts) on November 7, 2006 - 1:21pm. |
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The religious
The religious orthodox organizations don’t mind sticking their noses into the affairs of society. But imagine the idea of society pushing that nose back where it belongs and you’d think it was a major insult.
still crazy after all these yearsOrthodox Jews protest gay pride
Oh, but look on the bright side, now ultra-orthodox Jews can sit down with their arch-conservative Muslim and hyper right-wing Christian foes and they can all reminisce about how much they have in common. Can't you see the wonderful peacebuilding opportunity here? Gays and left-wingers can be the glue that binds these destabalising opposing forces as they plot violent over-reactions and write hate mail.
Ok, well, we happen to be screwed in the scenario. But we get to be martyrs at least, no? WWJD?
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
Amazingly enough, I'm totally with jetflight_girl !
you go girl,
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:cc7d87b070="jetflight_girl"]Well I definitely wasn't saying "Meh, they had the holocaust coming".
I was more implying that while the persecution has always been of political nature (not even Hitler, who persecuted them on racial, not religious grounds, made jews randomly their enemy), a lot of characteristics displayed by the hardliner, orthodox and elitist jews get written as something that describes ALL jews. The characteristics of "chosen people", "holier than thou", reclusiveness, commercial success (which IS largely due to throwing the ball back and forth between their own kin only; unless anyone wants to argue that fiscal management is a jewish racial characteristic) etc. All of those don't apply to all the jews - heck, probably MOST of that doesn't apply to all the jews. But there's always a minority that adheres to those beliefs. Just like in every minority, and as usual, the most obnoxious ones are those that get the most spotlight (I'd draw a parellel with gay pride parades here, where the media sadly concentrates on the freakshow rather than showing that the marchers are, by and large, normal, average people).
However... this is getting way off topic here, so I'll shut up now XD[/quote:cc7d87b070]
Oh yes, I understand completely. There will always be extremists in every denomination, ethnic group, etc. The scope and violence involved in this is what really struck me.
I mean, I've been to a LGBT protest rally where there were police on rooftops, the KKK and protestors not far away - But there were no threats (other then their presence) of violence. No rioting and vandalism in the streets, no murders in it's wake.
Couple that with the fact that Israeli is pretty progressive when it comes to LGBT rights. So its really the scope and scale which surprises me.
Here's another article I came across where an Orthodox Rabbi blamed gays for the recent conflicts in the Middle East.
http://www.365gay.com/Newscon06/07/072006israel.htm
Guess now its time for the blame game.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
I once read an article on an orthodox rabbi who said jews are to blame for the holocaust. I have also seen orthodox rabbi's make very enlightened remarks as to homosexuality.
You can blow up any situation by showing one or two extremist. Leave that to media such as cnn.
Perhaps you'd have to see this more in the light of the situation in israel as far as the orthodox jews and their position in israel goes.
Though they are a small group they can have a big influence.
Also they have a special status that for example excludes them from military service. They are extremely disliked by many israelies.
However israel is as far as my experience goes as good a place to live as a gay person as holland. So they did not seem to have used their influence in that area.
So I am wondering why hold the parade in jerusalem for the last two years rather than tel-aviv like they used to? Perhaps the issue with the orthodox in general had some influence in that decision?
Though I believe that provocation is sometimes necessary in the struggle for your rights I don't see how it would help in this case.
Llike I said before some of the orthodox are extremely religious and agressive about it. They respond violently to people driving on shabbat, some don't even accept the state of israel as long as the messiah hasn't arrived.
It seems to me comparabel to how some pro-lifers in the states bombed abortion clinics. Or killed doctors.
I get the impression this is meant to provoke rather than celebrate.
Also,why does it seem that some people presume that because your ancestors where persecuted you should be a better than average person. And then they are more upset when you are not than they would in any other case?
And why does that only seem to apply to jews?
Just wondering
:wink:
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:119d06f27a="gali"]I once read an article on an orthodox rabbi who said jews are to blame for the holocaust. I have also seen orthodox rabbi's make very enlightened remarks as to homosexuality.
You can blow up any situation by showing one or two extremist. Leave that to media such as cnn.[/quote:119d06f27a]
I'm not really following this. How is CNN blowing up the situation by reporting the story?
There's a video and article regarding this on BBC.UK.com as well. Unfortunately, the video is for 'UK users only'. [url=http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?tab=all&go=homepage&q=gay&scope=all][color=blue:119d06f27a]Link[/color:119d06f27a][/url] (Which doesn't seem to bode well for those of us who do use multiple news sources)
There's also [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6119512.stm][color=blue:119d06f27a]this[/color:119d06f27a][/url] current story on BBC as well.
Are they 'blowing' up the situation also by reporting the news?
[quote:119d06f27a="gali"]It seems to me comparabel to how some pro-lifers in the states bombed abortion clinics. Or killed doctors.[/quote:119d06f27a]
Yes, it is very much so.
[quote:119d06f27a="gali"]I get the impression this is meant to provoke rather than celebrate.[/quote:119d06f27a]
I agree.
[quote:119d06f27a="gali"]Also,why does it seem that some people presume that because your ancestors where persecuted you should be a better than average person. And then they are more upset when you are not than they would in any other case?
And why does that only seem to apply to jews?
Just wondering
:wink:[/quote:119d06f27a]
Who said this only applies to Jews? Orthodox Jews are the ones this story is about... Don't try to twist it like anyone is singling out Jews, that is extremely offensive.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
I agree with your bbc comment. It use to open to all and this change to uk only indeed does not bode well!
And I remain with the statement that it seems like 'blowing up'a story when there is an item like this on CNN and BBC.
I can make a little film about a shooting we had in the street here where I live, show a few people with a comment and suddenly you'd have a very different idea of holland.
CNN and BBC can then show it and it looks like the are just reporting the news.
I live in holland, I have lived in israel and I have seen CNN and BBC reports from and on these two countries and let me tell you that often they are not exactly a fair representation.
When people (as in general) make this remark so often when critisizing israel it is not me singling out jews. I have heard many do that.
Maybe I haven't been paying attention but I rarely hear people say how can russia do that after so long under communisme or how can africans do this after suffering so long. (yeah,yeah, I'm sure one or two did at some time but not nearly as often as this card is pulled on israel)
Since it was this time you making this remark I am asking you why?
This why I put the wink, to make clear I was not especially attacking you on it but wondering why you made that particular remark.
I am sorry if you find it offensive.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:2b238548c1="gali"]And I remain with the statement that it seems like 'blowing up'a story when there is an item like this on CNN and BBC.
I can make a little film about a shooting we had in the street here where I live, show a few people with a comment and suddenly you'd have a very different idea of holland.
CNN and BBC can then show it and it looks like the are just reporting the news.
I live in holland, I have lived in israel and I have seen CNN and BBC reports from and on these two countries and let me tell you that often they are not exactly a fair representation. [/quote:2b238548c1]
I understand what you are saying. Hell, I've spoken to someone in Australia and when I told them I was from Chicago, they asked me about the mob there. They really thought everyone there was like the Sopranos. So I understand misconceptions and how they can be perpetuated by the media and television.
But, especially as an American, I do not (cannot) take one incident and assume that one individual's actions reflect that of an entire society. If I did so, I'd feel pretty bad about my whole country - As our crime rates are staggering. So many other countries do not have half the things we have to worry about, and then, some have far worse.
[quote:2b238548c1="gali"]Since it was this time you making this remark I am asking you why?[/quote:2b238548c1]
I'm not exactly sure what this is in reference to. If you mean why was I talking about Orthodox Jews and their violent protests, I believe I explained that well already.
So please clarify what this question is in reference to.
Re: Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
this statement is what I was referring to.
Put like this it is not clear( to me anyway )that you are only refering to the ultra orthodox.
And I was asking why that last line?
When for instance you now see what some africans do to other africans, is then one of the first remarks you make also how can they do that when they have been mistreated for so long?
If you can honestly say you do then I am asking the wrong person my question but if you tend to say this sooner when it's an israel/jewish issue you're discussing I am asking why?
Re: Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
this statement is what I was referring to.
Put like this it is not clear( to me anyway )that you are only refering to the ultra orthodox.
And I was asking why that last line?
When for instance you now see what some africans do to other africans, is then one of the first remarks you make also how can they do that when they have been mistreated for so long?
If you can honestly say you do then I am asking the wrong person my question but if you tend to say this sooner when it's an israel/jewish issue you're discussing I am asking why?[/quote:0ce297125b]
I did already respond to that. :)
The article pertains to anti-gay violence by some Orthodox Jews in Israel. Why would I bring up Africans or otherwise in this discussion? That does not mean that I do not realize that atrocities are committed by others, it just has nothing to do with this discussion.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
either you don't want to answer my question or you don't understand my question.
I don't know which but you ignore the whole point of my comparison and come up with a response that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said!
Either way fine by me, just forget I asked before we get into a fight about this :)
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
I think having the gay pride parade in Israel is a good thing. If anything it will prove that if it happens the world will not come to an end. People thought the world would end if segregation came to an end. Is it just me or do the protests in Jerusalem remind you of all the protests over the cartoon about Islam, when people just went crazy?
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
set Mel Gibson on them :lol:
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:ff8d9dcee8="gali"]either you don't want to answer my question or you don't understand my question.
I don't know which but you ignore the whole point of my comparison and come up with a response that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said!
Either way fine by me, just forget I asked before we get into a fight about this :)[/quote:ff8d9dcee8]
What am I not answering? This thread has nothing to do with anything beside the topic at hand: Orthodox Jews protesting gay pride.
If I'm discussing that why would I bring up anything else?
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
:roll:
Well, I don't know leskidd? why did you bring up australia, chicago and american crime rates?
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
I believe Gali was quite clear in her remark and isn't it the point of a discussion around a theme to bring other examples, connected situations and ideas into the discussion? Otherwise what's the point of discussing at all?
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:b0d6e240a9="gali"]So I am wondering why hold the parade in jerusalem for the last two years rather than tel-aviv like they used to? Perhaps the issue with the orthodox in general had some influence in that decision?[/quote:b0d6e240a9]
Perhaps we should be asking "why not" instead of "why."
If Israel is as free and equal as you've said (and as I've heard from other sources), why can't they have a parade in Jerusalem? Surely the equal rights laws don't read, "...except in Jerusalem"?
Your statement sounds an awful lot like the Religious Right claiming that gay people are "flaunting" their sexuality when they're simply going about their day-to-day business. I don't think it's fair to assume the parade organisers had malicious, anti-religious intent simply because someone else is uncomfortable with them being there.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
because there is a difference in degree.
If you do or are something someone else takes offence at , the other person also has a right to feel that.
In order to live together you have to each make compromises.
And you can try to educate the other person. That also goes both ways.
And rarely works if you first completely disrespect the other's feelings.
Obviously having the parade in jerusalem has a similar effect on ultra orthodox jews as holding a gay parade in vatican city would have on catholics.
The average gay parade is hardly doing your day to day business.
I think though we have a right to a parade it doesn't mean we have to do it in the most offensive place.
I mean, its like walking into a church. There is no law as to how you should dress but whether religious or not most of us would not walk in there in for instance skirt and bikinitop. Though we would on any beach.
As to my remark as to the intent of the organisers I was merely wondering if there was a connection. I'm not saying there is. I am wondering if there is. To use the vatican comparison, I sure assume if someone suggested having a parade there that this was deliberate provocation. Jerusalem being a 'normal'city I merely wonder at the intent
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
I guess I don't see Jerusalem in the same way you do. It's a city with a diverse population of 700,000 people, only 65% of whom are Jewish (only a minority of them are ultra-orthodox). It's also the capital of the country, which makes it the political and social hub of Israel by default, not to mention the country's largest city.
In short, Jerusalem is not one big church (unlike Vatican City).
Now if the parade participants were marching specifically through sacred religious areas, that's a different matter. However, I've seen no reports to this effect; on the contrary, the finalised route ([url=http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378341533&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull]click here[/url]) has them walking past a university, a stadium and the prime minister's office. Hardly fodder for an LGBT religious protest.
To me, that doesn't look like they are intentionally trying to provoke religious ire; it's not like they're planning on hanging a rainbow flag on the Wailing Wall.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
well i don't believe jerusalem is the social hub of the country. I really believe that's tel-aviv. But admit I might possibly be wrong there!
Also it's not neccessarily my view that jerusalem is more than just a city.
It is the view of many jews and israelis.
There is a very well known saying'next year in jerusalem' said traditionally at one of the religious holidays.
And according to several polls the most popular song in israel is 'jerusalem of gold'
(of which you can see ofra haza's rendition, at the I think 50 year celebration of the state of israel, on youtube.)
(sorry, new to computers so don't know yet how to post a link but easy to find. Check it out! At the very least you'll see a gorgeous woman!)
In other words in some ways the whole city is a sacred religious area.
the article you refer to does say they will pass religious monuments.
I'm terrible with maps but the article also states the march is in the centre of the city.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:23b2a64dcf="gali"]:roll:
Well, I don't know leskidd? why did you bring up australia, chicago and american crime rates?[/quote:23b2a64dcf]
Er, because I was using them as an example to explain why I understood a point you made... I thought that was pretty obvious.
[quote:23b2a64dcf="LaLotus"]I believe Gali was quite clear in her remark and isn't it the point of a discussion around a theme to bring other examples, connected situations and ideas into the discussion? Otherwise what's the point of discussing at all?[/quote:23b2a64dcf]
Of course. Bringing up examples is part of debates like these.
The issue here was her insinuation (as I took it) that Jews were being singled out and that we were not discussing other races/religions, et al.
She may have been joking, but it was offensive.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
:roll:
yes it was obvious. Just as obvious as my'africans' comparison.
It is called sarcasm! Hence the roll of the eyes!
And as to the singling out thing.
That was exactly my question.
Are you more abt to use the 'you of all people should know better'argument with jews/israel than with others???
Maybe I am oversensitive but I get the impression that many people as in people in general, tend to do that.
And my question was to you do you find you are one of those people and if so why do you do that and if not so, you are obviously not the person who can answer the why question.
The reason I am trying to find out why is because I find it offensive when people, as people in general, do that.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:7c3f97c54d="gali"]:roll:
yes it was obvious. Just as obvious as my'africans' comparison.
It is called sarcasm! Hence the roll of the eyes!
And as to the singling out thing.
That was exactly my question.
Are you more abt to use the 'you of all people should know better'argument with jews/israel than with others???
[/quote:7c3f97c54d]
No.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
LOL... maybe they should look up the word "hypocrite"
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
Well there is no more parade [url]http://www.queerty.com/queer/news/jlem-pride-parade-cancelled-20061109.php#comments[/url]
That sucks, why give in? I'm with Harvey on this one where is our anger [url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=8nh2C8q8jnM&mode=related&search=[/url] If we continue to give in to what other people want we will never move forward.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:3cbc448ba8="LesKidd"][quote:3cbc448ba8="gali"]:roll:
yes it was obvious. Just as obvious as my'africans' comparison.
It is called sarcasm! Hence the roll of the eyes!
And as to the singling out thing.
That was exactly my question.
Are you more abt to use the 'you of all people should know better'argument with jews/israel than with others???
[/quote:3cbc448ba8]
No.[/quote:3cbc448ba8]
thank you
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:be8b4daea6="gali"]well i don't believe jerusalem is the social hub of the country. I really believe that's tel-aviv. But admit I might possibly be wrong there!
Also it's not neccessarily my view that jerusalem is more than just a city.
It is the view of many jews and israelis.
There is a very well known saying'next year in jerusalem' said traditionally at one of the religious holidays.
And according to several polls the most popular song in israel is 'jerusalem of gold'
(of which you can see ofra haza's rendition, at the I think 50 year celebration of the state of israel, on youtube.)
(sorry, new to computers so don't know yet how to post a link but easy to find. Check it out! At the very least you'll see a gorgeous woman!)
In other words in some ways the whole city is a sacred religious area.
the article you refer to does say they will pass religious monuments.
I'm terrible with maps but the article also states the march is in the centre of the city.[/quote:be8b4daea6]
Parts of Jerusalem may be religiously important, but that doesn't mean it's not a regular city too (unlike Vatican City, where the pope is head of state).
As I said, the population of Jerusalem is only 65% Jewish to begin with, and only a small minority of those people are ultra-orthodox. Why are the rights of those people more important than the rights of everyone else? I'm assuming Israel has laws that allow for freedom to assemble, freedom of speech, and equal rights; these same laws are allowing the ultra-orthodox to protest, but those religious folks shouldn't be allowed to actually stop the gay people from walking down the street. (?!)
And why wouldn't they march is the centre of the capital city? Why is that so offensive? Gay people march in Washington, D.C. all the time (and presumably tick off a few local Christians who don't want to see the parade). If you hold a parade in the outskirts of the tiniest town you can find, obviously the turnout isn't going to be very good. :roll:
There is nothing in the march plans that state it is a religious protest, or that they're going to do something to protest religion. Just like in America, it's the religious people who want to stop the LGBT paraders, not the other way around.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
All I can say again is that jerusalem though it happens to be the capital of the modern( as in the present ) state of israel it really can not be compared to say washington dc or the hague or any other capital. Though it ofcourse is also a regular city it is way more than that also to, no not me but many, many people.
If you have the time and inclination I think some research would prove me right. I gave some examples of this already but hey, that's just my word!
Indeed no reason to go by that. :)
Also it's clear the authorities basically had no problem with a gayparade in jerusalem and yes by now that has been made impossible by a small group of religious nutters.
And yes, that is basically wrong.
But untill 2 years ago it was always held in tel-aviv.
Hardley the outskirts of the tiniest town. If you want to party in israel you go to tel-aviv. It's not called the city that never sleeps for nothing.
According to wikipedia in the past when the parade was held there it drew as much as 100.000 people!
Jerusalem is a city that to many israeli is already for safety reasons( ie terrorisme)not the favourite place to visit.
To many gay people a gayparade is to show we are here and to celebrate. At least I think in countries such as israel where there basically are few problems for gays that is the main reason people attend.
I think all this combined with last years trouble and actual killing just makes me wonder how many people would show up?
So if you say we have to come with as much people as possible (visibility)
I am still wondering, why in jerusalem and not tel-aviv.
And I don't believe it's like the religious in the states versus gay rights because when it was held in tel-aviv the religious did not come there to protest the parade. And jerusalem is only 30 minutes away so it's not like it would be that difficult to do? I don't remember ever hearing of even the most extreme coming to tel-aviv to protest.
So all in all, what would be better for the general acceptance of gays by society?
The present mess that only prooved there are small groups of religious nutters around who ruin things for everybody(like that comes as a suprise)?
Or if there had just been a big gayparade in tel-aviv where a 100.000 people were seen to be out and proud and enjoying themselves?
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
To maggieyeahiss; If you anger people past the point of reason you will find there will be little movement forwards either! :wink:
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:f772ccc9b1="gali"]All I can say again is that jerusalem though it happens to be the capital of the modern( as in the present ) state of israel it really can not be compared to say washington dc or the hague or any other capital. Though it ofcourse is also a regular city it is way more than that also to, no not me but many, many people.
If you have the time and inclination I think some research would prove me right. I gave some examples of this already but hey, that's just my word!
Indeed no reason to go by that. :)[/quote:f772ccc9b1]
I realise it's "more than that" to a lot of people, but I think at least some consideration must be given to the residents of Jerusalem who live there and work there, not because it's a religious destination, but because it's their home.
[quote:f772ccc9b1]I think all this combined with last years trouble and actual killing just makes me wonder how many people would show up?
So if you say we have to come with as much people as possible (visibility)
I am still wondering, why in jerusalem and not tel-aviv.[/quote:f772ccc9b1]
Why not? If gay people truly are out and have equal rights in Israel, they should be allowed to walk whatever streets they choose. There's no need to create "gay ghetto" towns like Tel-Aviv (or San Francisco ;) ) as the only places gay people are allowed to congregate without fear of retribution. Equal rights, if they exist, apply in the entire country.
[quote:f772ccc9b1]And I don't believe it's like the religious in the states versus gay rights because when it was held in tel-aviv the religious did not come there to protest the parade. And jerusalem is only 30 minutes away so it's not like it would be that difficult to do? I don't remember ever hearing of even the most extreme coming to tel-aviv to protest.[/quote:f772ccc9b1]
I meant that the religious people are always the ones who have a problem with gay people and try to restrict them, not the other way around.
[quote:f772ccc9b1]So all in all, what would be better for the general acceptance of gays by society?
The present mess that only prooved there are small groups of religious nutters around who ruin things for everybody(like that comes as a suprise)?
Or if there had just been a big gayparade in tel-aviv where a 100.000 people were seen to be out and proud and enjoying themselves?[/quote:f772ccc9b1]
The present mess, since it has helped to highlight the continuing inequality in Israel. Gay people are not as equal there as the government would have you believe and now the world knows it. A minority opinion, perhaps, but similar minority religious-types in America have gotten quite a lot of news coverage for similar bannings!
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
well, I have no idea how many gay residents there are exactly in jerusalem nor how many religious exactly. so can't really comment on that. It also doesn't seem to have anything to do with my point.
They had the right and have the right as far as the authorities are concerned.
It''s really not correct to imply anything else here.
So no, it did not highlight a lack of equal rights for gays.
And tel-aviv is not a ghetto for gay people. Everybody of any sexual preference or whatever goes to tel-aviv to party. It is just THE city to party!
That is just such a incorrect term to use.
And finally religious people have been surpressed many times too. I'm not saying it's the case here but I think it's wrong to assume they are always the 'bad guy'in every situation.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:3ec47a8628="gali"]well, I have no idea how many gay residents there are exactly in jerusalem nor how many religious exactly. so can't really comment on that. It also doesn't seem to have anything to do with my point.[/quote:3ec47a8628]
It has everything to do with your point, since MY point is that Jerusalem is a city with a diverse population, 35% of whom aren't even Jewish. Why is the government so sympathetic to the feelings of the ultra-orthodox Jews instead of the majority of Jerusalem residents who aren't ultra-orthodox, or even Jews for that matter, and/or don't have a problem with the gay parade?
[quote:3ec47a8628="gali"]They had the right and have the right as far as the authorities are concerned.
It''s really not correct to imply anything else here.
So no, it did not highlight a lack of equal rights for gays.[/quote:3ec47a8628]
...except that the parade has been cancelled due to the religious protests, so clearly the rights of a few ultra-orthodox [i:3ec47a8628]are[/i:3ec47a8628] more important than the rights of gay people to organise and go for a walk. :|
[quote:3ec47a8628]And tel-aviv is not a ghetto for gay people. Everybody of any sexual preference or whatever goes to tel-aviv to party. It is just THE city to party!
That is just such a incorrect term to use.[/quote:3ec47a8628]
I didn't say it was. I said that, if you're going to say that gay people are equal, they should be equal in ALL parts of the country. You said that the gay parade should never have been in Jerusalem, and I say, "Why not?" If gay people are free and equal in Israel, that goes for Jerusalem too. You can't say, "They should only be allowed here and here" and pretend that's equality.
Ghetto is an extreme term, but I was using it to highlight an issue that Jewish people may find familiar and relateable. Clearly I failed.
[quote:3ec47a8628]And finally religious people have been surpressed many times too. I'm not saying it's the case here but I think it's wrong to assume they are always the 'bad guy'in every situation.[/quote:3ec47a8628]
Who said that? *Looks around* I know I didn't.
In the United States, I defy you to find ONE gay-friendly event or law that wasn't protested by a religious group. Just one. Conversely, it'd be quite easy to find a religious event or law that wasn't protested by a gay group. In fact, I bet you can find hundreds of Christian rallies or church functions where people [i:3ec47a8628]didn't[/i:3ec47a8628] show up with signs reading, "Fags Hate God." :| Shocking, that.
But never did I say this is ALWAYS true. Although--at the present time--the majority of social turmoil in the United States and beyond [i:3ec47a8628]is[/i:3ec47a8628] instigated by the fundamentalists/Religious Right, sometimes religious people have been/are oppressed. I won't deny that, but in the present day I think it's plain to see who the troublemakers are.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
first off all; the protests against the parade came from jerusalems jewish, christian and muslim clergy,
they were lodged at court and a judge decleared the parade could be held. Nutters then took to the streets. So AGAIN you can not say the authorities say here yes and there no.
Second the parade was cancelled after talks involving all parties and was also connected to the fact of heigthened securityrisk all over israel leaving them with less police-manpower,
thirdly I very clearly stated why I feel it was not the best choice to hold it in jerusalem.
fourt, the use of the word ghetto was indeed a bit strong for both tel-aviv and san fransisco.
I deliberately ignored the historical meaning because I don't even want to attempt to explain how wrong I find it if you actually meant to draw that connection, Now you say you DID use it in that sense?
Well, like I say, not going to have that discussion now.
Fact is I am not jewish. so no, in that sense it was not familiar and relatabel to me.
and finally, the situation in the usa has nothing to do with this discussion other than in the sense of you interpreting the story you hear as if it is taking place in the usa. It is not. It is taking place in a society very different from the american society. I know it's hard for some to imagine but the usa is actually not the whole world. :wink:
As for the the religious, it is possible that maybe, perhaps sometimes if you go up to someone and say I piss on everything you lead your live by that they, albeit wrongly, respond violently. it's called provocation. And though their response is wrong it's not the same as when they would attack you out of the blue. And all I am saying with this is NOT the religious are right because as it happens I THINK THE ORTHODOX PROTESTERS ARE WRONG!
I am saying don't assume so much. Get some more info.
for instance http://www.haaretz.com
Also there is a very good documentary on gays and lesbians within the jewish orthodox community which is very interesting. it is called 'trembling before G-D.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
Since you've misinterpreted my entire post and decided to take it personally, I'm going to politely bow out of this discussion with you. Everything you believe I've said is in direct opposition to what I've [i:97e2ad9594]actually[/i:97e2ad9594] said, and to defend myself based on your misinterpretations is pointless.
I will ignore most of your personal attacks, but I do have this to say specifically in response to your comment:
[quote:97e2ad9594]and finally, the situation in the usa has nothing to do with this discussion other than in the sense of you interpreting the story you hear as if it is taking place in the usa. It is not. It is taking place in a society very different from the american society. I know it's hard for some to imagine but the usa is actually not the whole world. ;)[/quote:97e2ad9594]
Please refer to my prior posts where I drew parallels between religious fanaticism in the US and religious fanaticism in Israel. It's a fair comparison, given the circumstances. And when you're done with that, understand that it's rude to make generalisations about Americans. Then take a look at my user info, and start making generalisations about England too. I bet that'll be double-fun! Yippee! :D
*Bows out*
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
I am wondering why they started to hold the rally in jerusalem in the first place. It used to be in tel-aviv.
Why change it to a city were there is a large group of people who already throw stones at cars driving during sabbat.
Are you not asking for trouble than? And is that a good thing for the gay community?
Israel is one of the first countries with certain legal rights for gay partners. The authorities seem to be ok with the gay community. The only people not ok are the ultra religious. Why provoke them when you know they are this extreme? It's not like you change their minds with this.
I mean, would we consider holding a gay rally in vaticancity a good idea? Or a senseless provocation?
btw, the people doing this are actually the most extreme among the ultra-orthodox. They are a very small group and not representative of jews, israeli's and possible not even of ultra-orthodox. But that last part is a big possible.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
quote'Ghetto is an extreme term, but I was using it to highlight an issue that jewish people find familiar and relaetable. Clearly I fail'
Since I at the time was the only one you are discussing with here are you saying you were not being personel here? and making a presumption?
Other than presuming you are an american where did I make all these personel attacks on you?
btw if you are not american how come you can vote in their election?
Not such a strange assumption to make then from my side is it?
And yes I will bow out too.
You and another person here are both too quick to use that little ploy for my taste; when you run out of good arguments just make a bold statement without facts in which you just turn the whole situation around and then 'gracefully bow out'
:roll:
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:4f1f3bf2b5="gali"]Other than presuming you are an american where did I make all these personel attacks on you?
btw if you are not american how come you can vote in their election?
Not such a strange assumption to make then from my side is it?
And yes I will bow out too.
You and another person here are both too quick to use that little ploy for my taste; when you run out of good arguments just make a bold statement without facts in which you just turn the whole situation around and then 'gracefully bow out'
:roll:[/quote:4f1f3bf2b5]
Firstly, I don't believe Koma ever said she wasn't American, she simply stated that since you were making generalisations about Americans based on her comments, you may also want to note that she is now in England, in case you wanted to make the same comments about British people.
And secondly, if you knew Koma at all, which it is obvious you do not, you would know that she is not the sort of person who runs away when she cannot think of anything to say. She is simply bowing out of a conversation where it is clear she cannot win due to your constant misinterpretation of her comments and your inability to understand or accept another person's point of view without turning it into an argument of sorts.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
I am happy for her that she has a little buddy to stick up for her.
How brave of you to call me stupid!
no, I don't know koma. Did she ask you to do this or did you come up with this all by your little self?
Tell you what, I think I do have enough of a take on koma to think the latter!
Iam sure your post is not at all personal and not at all completely unrelated to the thread.
That must be my misinterpreting and lack of understanding again.
I will leave you all with another concept I am sure you will have no problem understanding, what with you all being way smarter than me.
Stating an opinion as fact does not make it a fact!
And saying that someone who points out a 'fact' is actually not a fact, is argumentative is...
Well, I am sure your superiour brain is able to come up with the correct term!
I will leave you now to continue to chat amongst yourselves. Enjoy!
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
As it is becoming a costume to back up peeps totally beyond the point of the thread but just because being familiar with the person in question...
I am here to do my duty as a friend of Gali's...
All I can say is this...
There were two braincells discussing with Gali's brain...
Go figure... maybe one of them will be able to come up with what that means
ROFL :lol:
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
well, to all concerned.
I have just been talking to someone very familiar with forums and it seems what's going on here is a sort of same language but yet language barrier. In which we differ in the way we say what we mean and therefor mutually misinterpret and misunderstand. A bit like if I use a bridge as an example to an engineer right away we probably each have a very different concept in mind. Even though it's all in the same language.
I think he might be right so hereby my apology if this is they case! :oops: :oops: :oops:
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:ca06b272f0="gali"]well, to all concerned.
I have just been talking to someone very familiar with forums and it seems what's going on here is a sort of same language but yet language barrier. In which we differ in the way we say what we mean and therefor mutually misinterpret and misunderstand. A bit like if I use a bridge as an example to an engineer right away we probably each have a very different concept in mind. Even though it's all in the same language.
I think he might be right so hereby my apology if this is they case! :oops: :oops: :oops:[/quote:ca06b272f0]
First of all, I never called you stupid, I figured there was a language barrier but if you're going to enter into a conversation where you are attacking somone for their comments, you should first make sure you have an understanding of their language and what they have said.
We're all aware that this board has a lot of members from different countries who speak different languages, and it is for that reason that we should ensure we understand what we are reading and therefore interpreting before we post.
And lastly, before I leave you to it, I would appreciate if you did not have your friends come on here and flame myself or any other members. This board does not tolerate personal flaming of any kind.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:372531c96e="LaLotus"]As it is becoming a costume to back up peeps totally beyond the point of the thread but just because being familiar with the person in question...
I am here to do my duty as a friend of Gali's...
All I can say is this...
There were two braincells discussing with Gali's brain...
Go figure... maybe one of them will be able to come up with what that means
ROFL :lol:[/quote:372531c96e]
Well LaLotus, it is clear to us all how much you know about this site, and how intelligent you are. May I suggest before you flame any other members that you read site rules. Flaming of any kind is not tolerated for any member, continual flaming will result in you being banned from the site and your account deleted.
I won't comment on the rest of your post as it doesn't deserve much acknowledgement at all.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[b:2ba276fc0b]Gali[/b:2ba276fc0b]:
I asked you nicely to leave me out of the discussion, and within an hour you were at it again. For the second time: LEAVE ME ALONE. I have put up with implications that I'm a racist, self-centred, xenophobic, assumptive person, all because you have misread and misinterpretted every good-natured discussion I have attempted to engage you in.
I left the discussion because there is no use continuing a conversation when the other side isn't listening, and for some reason this angered you (and others) even more.
To clarify for the third time, LEAVE ME ALONE.
If your apology is the end of it, I am quite happy to leave it at that. I suspect it is not, however, given the responses made by others in this thread recently. Which leads me to...
To [b:2ba276fc0b]LaLotus[/b:2ba276fc0b] (and anyone else who feels the need to attack people in this thread, and that includes [b:2ba276fc0b]Gali[/b:2ba276fc0b] prior to her apology):
Flaming is NOT tolerated on the AfterEllen.com forums. If you persist in calling members names or making personal attacks, you will be banned. This is supposed to be a place for friendly discussion; there is no reason for this type of behaviour, especially towards people you have never met and know nothing about.
That rule is relevant to those who verbally attack ANY forum members (lest you think I'm on a one-brain-celled high horse). Simply because [b:2ba276fc0b]Kirsty[/b:2ba276fc0b], by her own volition, agrees with me instead of you is no reason to call her names or make personal attacks against her (or [b:2ba276fc0b]LesKidd[/b:2ba276fc0b], who I believe you also referenced in your post).
Thank you for your cooperation in adhering to our forum rules and keeping this a safe, happy place to engage in discussions. I trust this is FINALLY the end of this matter.
*K*
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
Oh well... Was it really that offensive?
Hmm sensitivity has different branches...
Oh well, be nice to Gali that's all I wanted to say...
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:125af7127d="Kirsty"]
Well LaLotus, it is clear to us all how much you know about this site, and how intelligent you are.
I won't comment on the rest of your post as it doesn't deserve much acknowledgement at all.[/quote:125af7127d]
STOP FLAMING BY THE WAY .... rofl
Re: Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:a036fd10e2="LesKidd"] Further, by a people who have been oppressed and hunted for their own beliefs.
[/quote:a036fd10e2]
Why do you think they were oppressed in the first place? Because some pope discovered that "Oh my god, you killed Jesus! You bastards!"? Hardly.
Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
I suggested that Koma unlock this folder in the hope something productive could come out of it. As LaLotus chooses to continue to flame, I am locking this folder permanently now.
This is the second thread which Gali has been a part of which has been locked. If there is another I will request board banishment.
Re: Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:306a2a3d90="jetflight_girl"][quote:306a2a3d90="LesKidd"] Further, by a people who have been oppressed and hunted for their own beliefs.
[/quote:306a2a3d90]
Why do you think they were oppressed in the first place? Because some pope discovered that "Oh my god, you killed Jesus! You bastards!"? Hardly.[/quote:306a2a3d90]
please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that the Jews were opressed because they were oppressing others? if so, i would respectfully disagree... and then further argue that even if they [i:306a2a3d90]were[/i:306a2a3d90] oppressing others, that a Holocaust was hardly an equitable and just remedy.
if i am incorrect in my interpretation of your comment, then i offer that it's past midnight my time and i really should be in bed... right after i have some chocolate. :wink:
Re: Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:ce695f88ce="sheesh"][quote:ce695f88ce="jetflight_girl"][quote:ce695f88ce="LesKidd"] Further, by a people who have been oppressed and hunted for their own beliefs.
[/quote:ce695f88ce]
Why do you think they were oppressed in the first place? Because some pope discovered that "Oh my god, you killed Jesus! You bastards!"? Hardly.[/quote:ce695f88ce]
please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that the Jews were opressed because they were oppressing others? if so, i would respectfully disagree... and then further argue that even if they [i:ce695f88ce]were[/i:ce695f88ce] oppressing others, that a Holocaust was hardly an equitable and just remedy.
if i am incorrect in my interpretation of your comment, then i offer that it's past midnight my time and i really should be in bed... right after i have some chocolate. :wink:[/quote:ce695f88ce]
Oh, no no. I wasn't very clear there at all it seems.
To me, its logical that a people who were oppressed and nearly obliterated many times throughout history would be more tolerant of others.
Re: Orthodox Jews protest gay pride
[quote:771cdf1613="LesKidd"][quote:771cdf1613="sheesh"][quote:771cdf1613="jetflight_girl"][quote:771cdf1613="LesKidd"] Further, by a people who have been oppressed and hunted for their own beliefs.
[/quote:771cdf1613]
Why do you think they were oppressed in the first place? Because some pope discovered that "Oh my god, you killed Jesus! You bastards!"? Hardly.[/quote:771cdf1613]
please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that the Jews were opressed because they were oppressing others? if so, i would respectfully disagree... and then further argue that even if they [i:771cdf1613]were[/i:771cdf1613] oppressing others, that a Holocaust was hardly an equitable and just remedy.
if i am incorrect in my interpretation of your comment, then i offer that it's past midnight my time and i really should be in bed... right after i have some chocolate. :wink:[/quote:771cdf1613]
Oh, no no. I wasn't very clear there at all it seems.
To me, its logical that a people who were oppressed and nearly obliterated many times throughout history would be more tolerant of others.[/quote:771cdf1613]
I thought you were perfectly clear, LesKidd.
I think it was jetflight_girl who implied one of two things by her statement. One is that oppression of the Jews was simply a reaction to 'bad behaviour' on their part -- they deserved it somehow. (Which provoked sheesh.)
The other possibility is that she's saying it wasn't oppression for their RELIGIOUS beliefs, but more of a political persecution with a specific historical trajectory and social reasons. This would be in response to your saying they were 'hunted for their own beliefs' -- not so much the faith as other factors.
So I'm a little stumped as to what the original poster meant -- can you clarify, jetflight_girl?