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I HHHATTEE the word "dyke"
I know I'm probably being uptight about this, but whatever. I was talking with a fellow gay girl today and the whole time we were talking she kept using the word DYKE in reference to herself, me...etc. I don't know why but it was driving me insane. After about 20 minutes I asked her NICELY to stop using that word and she threw a tizzee. I get it. I do. I hear gay boys use the word F*ggot and black people use the word N*gga Asians use the word chinky....etc. etc. I've heard the logic that its empowering and that it actually lessens the painful connotation.... but I'm just going to call BS. Too many times I've been called a "fucking dyke" by some real aholes and while I know its not the same when lesbians and gays use it,...I'm just not going to aid in its commonality by using it myself. Sorry just not. I flinch every time I hear my younger 16 year old brother use the word F*ggot as an insult to his friends and d*ke to girls that he doesn't like. Its bad enough when he uses it. I'm not going to be a hipocrite and say we can use the word but other people can't. I'm sure a lot of you will disagree with me on this but words aren't always just words and its just how I feel.
April 3, 2009: I completely regret starting this forum. I resent the fact that I have to defend my opinion but I resent even more the ugliness its brought out in me. Our satire and tone is not always clear online, but my blatantly horrible rudeness was loud and clear. I AM VERY VERY VERY SORRY GRRRLROMEO. Although, I'm not stoked about the way you spoke to me there was definitely a better way for me to have gone about in voicing that. I am better than everything I've said to you in the last 24 hours and I'm ashamed of it. While I love this website and the friends I've made on it, I'm deleting my account tomorrow because that's how pissed at myself I am. You can tell me to take my apology and shove it that's fine. I'm not reading any more comments on here though so I guess I'll never know.
Submitted by Anonymous on March 31, 2009 - 6:55pm. |
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I use it all the time and
I like dyke
I've been called fucking dyke and I've been called fucking lezzie. People can say "lesbian" in a derogatory manner. I personally prefer dyke or gay...I sort of feel like lesbian sounds kind of femme I guess or sapphic, and I just don't identify with the roots of the word lesbian as much as I do with dyke.
If someone else doesn't like dyke, then I just wouldn't call them that.
The San Francisco Pride Parade and other Pride Parades are started off every year by the Dykes on Bikes, which is a registered trademark they had to sue to have. Then there's the Dykes to Watch Out For comic strip.
It's sort of like the word "queer"...some gay men don't like it, but it is used frequently by the gay community...Queer Theory, Queer as Folk etc.
These days the kids are using "gay" as an insult...and we can't very well stop using that word because of the way some people use it.
Yes
I agree totally with you- I love the word 'dyke', and truly do feel that it can be used by the lesbian community as a tough, in-your-face, empowering message. I actually prefer it to the word 'lesbian' which I abhor because (a) it sounds like a horrible skin disease (b) it seems quite clinical and (c) it also seems somehow old-fashioned and soppy and 'lentil soup women's group' to me.
I know that this is only my opinion, but I relish the defiant toughness of the word and I think that I have the right to call myself by it, and to use in in reference to lesbian stuff that I might be discussing.
However, I would never call someone else a dyke unless they used it in reference to themselves, as I know that some people feel like the OP, and they have every right to feel that way.
The girl that she was talking to shouldn't have thrown a strop when she asked her to stop, either. Respect and intention is the key, ladies!
Hip To The Beat, Mommie-O!
I understand why some
I understand why some people don't like the word "dyke" but i feel that if we deem words as "bad words" then that is what they become.
I get where you're coming from
As a gay black woman I totally get where you're coming from. I never use and don't tolerate the use of the "N-Word" from others. It's especially tough now because like the words "Gay" "Fag" "Dyke" etc. the words have become common place for the youth. Ride any NYC subway before or after school hours and you can hear kids of every color throwing around the N-Word and it really bothers me.
I mean, I get it. I understand the whole concept of taking a word that was once used as an insult to hold a people down and owning it and making it your own-wait, that's a lie-I don't get it! I dunno-It's hard and sometimes harder for me because being a woman who's gay and black you've been dealth a pretty shitty hand...
I think it all lies in who you are as a person and the people that you associate with. I had a friend who dropped the N-Word like it was going out of style, like you I tolerated it for about 10 minutes cringing every time he referred to me in that way. Like your friend he completely blew up at me. We're not friends any more.
I do see GrrrrlRomeo (sorry if I added too many "R's") point, too. I don't prefer to use the word Dyke, and have had to deal with a co-worker who's always referring to her dress as "too dykey" and she's straight. GrrrlRomeo makes a good point, though, if you're around folks who use the word and it bothers you-tell them. If they're good friends they'll understand.
It's situational for me, really. It's not my favorite word choice but I use it every once in a while.
OhioLezGirlinNYC
http://oh-iolez-girlinnyc.blogspot.com/I don't like it either
I don't like the D word either and try to avoid using it.
I have to agree...
No issue
Ditto
I use all those words all the time.
I respect other's and how they feel about it and I always adjust myself accordingly. But when I'm alone with my gyrl, we let all those words fly.
"to they ownself b tru"
www.hardcandycalendar.com
http://www.cafepress.com/KineticCards
I usually use it...
when i effect a really bad southern accent with it. Or when i see a butch twelve-year-old; me and my friends lovingly refer to them as DITs. (dykes in training)
___ __ _____ __ _____ _ ___ _ ____ _
I dangled my participle in her fragment and stretched it into a run-on.
http://ichasethedevil.blogspot.com
i dont like it either
I use that word quite often...
... When refering to embankments for holding back water. I also use gay alot, when refering to the emotion of happiness. I said "Queer" the other day in my English class, and even my teacher had to think for a moment before he realized that I was using its original definition of odd. Another time, one of the incompetent twits in my class called another person a fag and I polietly told this incometent twit that said person was not a cigarette.
That's just how I roll.
OHSNAPSKIS.
a faggot is a pile of
I stopped taking offense
I stopped taking offense to the word long ago. I have used it before mostly in writing, but never with ill intent. I don't get bent out of shape when I hear it used negatively because I'm usually well prepared for some harsh words in return. Words are as powerful as you make them and that's as deep as it gets for me since I devote most of my life to writing and thoroughly understand the impact we make or create with just a few sentences uttered or read. I do agree that if it bothers you it should always be addressed to those around you so they can respect your wishes.
studwithswag.com
I could go either way
I could definitely go either way on this, it's true that people will also use lesbian, lezzie, lez, etc as an insult as well as gay, I even know plenty of gay people who describe people or things as gay in a negative way which I think is pretty obnoxious..but anyway.
At the same time I definitely know what you mean, about being called a dyke in a negative way, after hearing some asshole shout it at me I don't want to go back to my friends and have them call me a dyke also, that just doesn't seem right..
It definitely seems like people just need to be careful when referring to someone as a dyke. Like..maybe people can be free to call themself a dyke but be careful about calling other lesbians dykes? Just a thought..
Partners?
Agreedddd jaja, that
RIGGHHTTT???
this too! Boooo the english language sometimes! It's like man up and use GF or BF or fiancee or husband or wife! We're not running a laundromat we're dating for crying out loud!
............hmmm wow lol, anyone got a xanax??
OMG YES!
Totally agree
Have you lgbt women really not noticed
Have you really noticed
I think that whole thing is kind of annoying
Straight guys certainly don't call their friends their boyfriends.
I get confused when I hear women talking about their girlfriend because I never know if they mean a friend or a girlfriend and there's not really any reason to add the girl part..
I certainly don't think that just because these women decide it makes sense to use this term that I should have to resort to calling my girlfriend my "partner" or my "lover". She's my girlfriend. If I were a guy and dating a girl she would be my girlfriend and there's no reason it should be different.
Yeah straight men don't have boyfriends
they don't often hug and kiss each other either. Or walk down the street arm in arm.
It's hardly surprising that many straight men think most women are at least a little bit "bi" :)
my mum calls my dad her
N-Word isn't like Dyke
My personal position on the n-word is that as a white person I will never use it and I'll tell other white people not to use it, but I can't tell black people not to use it because it's not my place to tell black people what to call themselves.
I don't think dyke is anything like the n-word historically. When whites used the n-word as a pejorative term, what they meant was "dumb"...unintelligent, less civilized, inferior. When black people reappropriate the word they're changing that meaning of it. Or sometimes I have heard black people say it actually implying the person is dumb. The origin of it literally just meant the color black. It's more complicated because there are multiple meanings of the word that have changed over time
Dyke was shorten from bulldyke which was a derogatory term for a woman that was too masculine, IOW butch. It originated during a time when it was not acceptable for a woman to be too masculine or challenge gender roles.
So the insult in dyke is a woman who is butch, too masculine, too aggressive or just a woman who is breaking gender roles. To reappropriate the word is to say it is okay for a woman to be those things. The meaning of it has never really changed. What has changed is whether or not it's okay for a woman to break gender roles. So, am I a dyke? Yes I am.
good point ;)
Well said
Well said.
I don't use the "n word" to refer to myself or other African Americans because I don't think it relates to my culture or view of my racial identity. I think other black people are within their right to use the word because they are asserting authority over how language is used to describe us. If a person is a member of a group that has traditionally used their power over language to oppress people, I don't think they have the right to use the "n word" the same way.
I guess I liken dyke to queer - when I use it to refer to myself or other people who self-identify as dyke or queer, it's me re-asserting control over language that has traditionally been used to harm LGBT communities. It seems like more LGBT people are ok with people outside of those communities using the word queer than dyke. There are people who use queer, dyke, and gay in derogatory ways. Will dyke ever have the same acceptance as the word queer? Not sur. I think we have to examine power structures, historic uses of language, and context when we think about which words we choose to use.
I dislike the N-word & wonder how other people really feel about
My personal position on the n-word is that as a white person I will never use it and I'll tell other white people not to use it, but I can't tell black people not to use it because it's not my place to tell black people what to call themselves.
I'm white and live in Manhattan in Harlem. Mostly, I hear young teenagers using the N-word to each other, sometimes kiddingly and sometimes argumentatively. Words are powerful and if I had a son or daughter who used the word 'Jew bastard' or 'kike' or 'spic' 'mick' 'guinea' or 'chink' the way the N-word is tossed around, I would be appalled and tell my child not to use it ever again.
One time in a Korean market I heard a young black man call a Korean a *n* because he was trying to buy cigarettes but the grocer asked him for proof of age. In anger the young man called him a *n*. The older Korean grocer looked dumbfounded and did not understand what was going on.
the N-word is a selectively used kind of PC word - like you can't use it but I can because I'm Black. Well, at the risk of getting flamed, I feel that your Black ancestors would turn over in their graves if they heard the N-word used so easily. That word really hurt and burnt people's souls to the core. Let's get rid of it once and for all. IMO, words don't 'belong' to any group if it has historical value that hurt people for centuries.
The original oppressors and slavemasters were stupid to use that word and worse. Let's not dig up old hurts. Respect all your ancestors who were whipped, enslaved, hanged and derided with the N-word.
An ex g/f of mine originally from Somalia detested the N-word and if anyone had ever insulted her, white, black or red, I would have kicked their ass no matter how big they were.
If anybody feels insulted I'm sorry but that's how I feel.
The power my black ancestors should have had
The reason why the N Word is so horrific is because black people have not had the social status to control language - especially the words that are used to describe us.
I hate the idea that people who are a part of a culture of power (or not black) still have the authority to tell black people what they should call themselves. The only way to right the power imbalance is to let black people have a stake in the creation, rujuvenation, and the rejection of common language.
I have issues with how many people use the N word - including black people. I think that struggle is OURS - not yours. Let us struggle to reclaim this word on our own terms.
This is a human struggle again all kinds of name calling
I have issues with how many people use the N word - including black people. I think that struggle is OURS - not yours. Let us struggle to reclaim this word on our own terms.
Is it a 'struggle' to reclaim a word and change its original meaning. I believe this is literally not a black or white struggle but a human struggle. Let the name calling stop as well as derogatory labels.
I'm not trying to be clever here but I seriously wonder if President Obama and Michelle Obama use the N-word - especially in front of their two beautiful daughters.
hmmm
As a minority myself, I can
Internalized racism
Yeah, there are studies that show black children use more positive language to describe other races than their own race. The problem is generated inside and outside of the community. I read another study that said children who did not watch TV before age 3 or 4 had way less stereotypes about gender, sexuality, race, and ethnicity than children who do. Also, many minorities are subjected to public education experiences that devalue their languages, communities, and histories.
I've seen black children use the N Word in positive and negative ways - sometimes, their use was positive and negative at the same time. I don't think walking up to black teenagers who use the N Word and telling them to stop will stop the internalized racism you talk about. If anything, denying them the right to describe themselves will have negative consequences. Also, the N Word is complex and has different contexts that are understood by black people who use it. I think many people don't understand how it is used in the community and instead of honoring the complexity they try to stomp it out. There are many black people who use the N Word everyday and have high self-esteem and are successful. There are many black people who have internalized negative ideas about their race who don't use the N Word.
Could you explain the link you are making between the N Word and the negative ideas minorities internalize about themselves?
First , slow down
First , slow down you’re on a roll I can see that. Personally, I wasn’t making any links between negative ideas minorities internalize about themselves and the N word, simply stating that in your previous discussion internalized racism was left out. I think that in any discussion of power and race we should discuss and give voice to those internalized negative messages that are processed by the oppressed person.
As for your question, I honestly feel that I do not have the ability to explain the link between the N word and negative ideas that are internalized by African-Americans. I have hypothesis as to what those links and those ideas are, and I can talk about studies that I have read to the topic. But further then that I can’t ascertain for you the complexities of the topic, because I have not studied enough to go there.
What I can talk about because I have studied this topic in depth is internalize homophobia and what it does in the LGBT community. I can even talk about internalized racism in East Asians such as Chinese, Korean, and Japanese nationals, or their 2nd generation children. I can talk about phenomenon of internalized racism manifest themselves in 2nd generation and 3rd generation East Asians living in the US. And because I have this understanding, and because I have experienced this I can hypothesize that for the African-American community internal racism is a huge factor to y’alls daily struggle.
And I wanted to give voice to that struggle, not necessarily join in on the discussion at hand but simply voice the continued and often not validated internal struggle of the African-American community ,which I suspect you can voice that struggle far better then I.
It would be interesting to hear your ideas
I wholly
I wholly heartedly agree, but honestly i’ll have to rain check you on joining in on the conversation for now.
Discomfort
I also like the idea of black people reclaiming this word even though it causes some discomfort. I think the N Word can be a source of power over language and a reminder of the brutal power imbalance that created the word (I don't think we're there yet - most people don't understand how pervasive and terrible the N Word actually was - and I think that's the fault of people who have control over what elements of history we learn about in common culture). I think some people should feel discomfort when they hear the N Word - especially those who kid themselves into thinking the past doesn't matter or have serious implications on our current power structures. I think the culture of power running away from discomfort via the "we're all color blind" (more like history blind) is part of the reason why institutional power imbalances still exist.
Honoring Ancestors is Personal
Americans are kind of stupid on ancestory. Not everyone who is black has ancestors who were slaves. Some black people aren't even African American. So I don't think you can just tell someone not to use a word because it's disrespectful to their ancestory when you've just assumed their ancestory on the basis of their skin color.
If a straight person told me not to say "dyke" I would tell them what they could go do with themselves. Straight culture already tells me who I can marry, how I should dress and act, and I'll be damned if a straight person is going to tell me how I should talk about myself and my community.
I think the feeling is sort of like that.
Americans are not always stupid and know some history
Americans are kind of stupid on ancestory. Not everyone who is black has ancestors who were slaves. Some black people aren't even African American. So I don't think you can just tell someone not to use a word because it's disrespectful to their ancestory when you've just assumed their ancestory on the basis of their skin color.
/quote]
I'm not so sure that being black but not an African American means the black non-African American doesn't know about that horrible period of time. I'm basically saying that ownership of the N'word should be abolished. I'm not trying to control the use of the word - I just hate the word period.
My great grandmother emigrated to the USA from Russia where she was oppressed and called terrible names. I would not dare use those same names no matter how cute, funny, or how much I thought I 'owned' the word. Words hurt and if they're meant to go for the throat then I don't care who uses them. Personally, I honor my great grandmother and would not repeat any of the hate words used on her in order to reclaim the word and take the sting out of it. IMO, it just doesn't work.
I recall that the Rev.Jesse Jackson called President Obama the N'word during Obama's campaign for the presidency. Rev. Jackson said something to the effect "I'd like to cut that N"s balls off." I don't make this stuff up! This is not right and so inappropriate. Just because Rev. Jackson is black does not give him the right to use the word. If a white person. Asian or American Indian had said that there would have been an uproar in the States about how inappropriate that comment was.
Your Choice
That is your choice. Which is the point...freedom is choice.
Words hurt? Really? As a minority I totally did not know that. See I'm getting sarcastic now because I think you're being patronizing...as if you know more than I do about being a minority and that makes you right.
We're having a disagreement on principle here. I made a choice to give up my priviledge on the word. Although, I still have some priviledge because I had the choice to start with. If someone used the n-word towards me...well...I'd think that'd be odd, but it wouldn't make me feel oppressed in anyway. Context matters. I'm white and that's part of the context.
Jesse Jackson said about Obama "I want to cut his nuts off." He didn't say the n-word..unless you mean "nuts".
I stand corrected on the Jesse Jackson quote
Words hurt? Really? As a minority I totally did not know that. See I'm getting sarcastic now because I think you're being patronizing...as if you know more than I do about being a minority and that makes you right.
Jesse Jackson said about Obama "I want to cut his nuts off." He didn't say the n-word..unless you mean "nuts".
Sorry, I see now that Rev. Jackson did not call Obama the *N word. Here's a clip of what he actually said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quch7x3R6gw&NR=1
I do not know anymore than anybody else about being a minority and I don't feel I'm being patronizing. Anyway, weren't most people in the United States considered a minority at one point or another? The only people originally in the US were Native American Indians so even the word ethnic is not really applicable because most of our ancestors came from someplace else.
Oh well, thanks for the correction about Rev. Jackson.
And the Pink Triangle
I am part Native American, but my ancestors weren't slaughtered...they intermarried with the Acadians (French peasants that settled in New England/Canada) who were driven from their torched homes by the British. Yeah, I have a history...and it is just that. I'm not discriminated against because I'm of Native American/French peasant/highland Scottish (plus Catholic) descent and I never have been. I've been discriminated against because I come from a poor family and because I'm a gay woman.
While there are similarites and I think abstract comparisons that can be made between different types of discrimination, lets not pretend that it's all the same and all has the same history.
Most of us know what it's like to be called some derrogatory slur or another. And how we deal with it is personal. If you were talking to me this way about me using the word "dyke", I would tell you where to go frankly. I won't call you a dyke if you don't want me to. But don't you dare tell me not to say it at all. While dyke and the n-word share a totally different history I at least understand the desire to reappropriate words...that word and that history is still affecting me today, and I don't want it to be forgotten.
We've reappropriated the pink triangle for gay pride...that symbol that was put on the uniforms of gay prisoners in concentration camps during the holocaust. That's a pretty horrible history...should we not be using it?
The Pink Triangle
While dyke and the n-word share a totally different history I at least understand the desire to reappropriate words...that word and that history is still affecting me today, and I don't want it to be forgotten.
We've reappropriated the pink triangle for gay pride...that symbol that was put on the uniforms of gay prisoners in concentration camps during the holocaust. That's a pretty horrible history...should we not be using it?
Yes, the word 'dyke' and the n-word share a totally different history and I can't even begin to compare the two. Black slaves had it much harder than gay people. Sure we've been oppressed, and gay-baited, beaten up and even killed, but it still pales next to what Black people went through for centuries.
The pink triangle was placed on gay men to identify them as homosexual by the Nazis. The pink triangle symbol was put on the uniforms of gay male prisoners in concentration camps during the Holocaust.
In 1973 the German gay liberation group Homosexuelle Aktion Westberlin (HAW) called upon gay men to wear the pink triangle as a memorial to past victims and to protest continuing discrimination.
The pink triangle was reapropriated for gay pride In the early 1970s. Gay rights organizations in Germany and the United States launched campaigns to reclaim the pink triangle. .etymology
That was actually not my point. My point was the words themselves have a different history, I mean the etymology.
I repeat, "dyke" is a term for a woman thought to be too masculine. That is the insult. "You're too masculine." Unless you think that's bad it's not an insult. It would be the same if someone called you gay with disdain. I mean, it's true...but the the insult is in the disdain.
I identify with dyke more because I feel like it's describes my gender expression as well as my sexual orientation. I use lesbian because that's what I'm "allowed" to say without people freaking....but really I do not identify with Sappho.
When whites said the n-word they were implying that person was inferior.
And I know the history of the pink triangle...obviously...that is why I brought it up as an example. That doesn't really change my point. I think if someone did something like...I dunno, burn a rainbow flag or something with a pink triangle on it, the gay community would be upset.
Gay rights organizations have launched campaigns to try to convince kids to stop using the word "gay" as a synonym for "stupid..because if it becomes popular enough we will lose ownership over the word.
How do you feel when people call Katy Perry a lesbian? When people use "lesbian" as a term for someone who is bisexual...or even just bicurious?
From Sunnyboi the gay dyke (redundant?)
How do you feel when people call Katy Perry a lesbian? When people use "lesbian" as a term for someone who is bisexual...or even just bicurious?
Well, this has been an interesting thread and I hope everyone has calmed down a bit. I also hope that we don't lose any AE members because the posts sometimes got a little rough at the edges. That's the internet but there's so much good stuff on AE and lively, often controversial subjects that I hope everyone plans to stick around.
As far as Katy Perry, listen she 'kissed a girl' so maybe she invited labels. Plus she's running to the bank with her best selling records.
Here's one Katy wrote for her boyfriend (either a metrosexual or closet gay) Clickedy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWbLkXhGEmo
Similar
It's sort of similar to refering to Jews as Kikes, or Jewish people refering to themselves as Kikes [which is just one of many slurs towards Jews]. As most ethnic slurs, its original meaning wasn't intened as an insult, but over time it became one. But, I've never heard any person calling themself a Kike, or another Jewish person one. I try to use words in their orginal context.
OHSNAPSKIS.
Jew as a slur
Really?
I never heard "Jew" used as a derrogatory term. But then again, I suppose when used to describe things it is technically derrogatory, as you said. I use it when describing stereotypes, though, like a "Jewish nose".
OHSNAPSKIS.