Real Lesbians do exist and are soooo over men, including sex and relationships with men
I've been reading some of the topics about bisexual women, faux lesbians who have sex with men and lesbians who enjoy gay and straight porn. For the most part I've been laughing my ass off because I and many other gay women I know are so far removed from the assumptions that the original posters write as if they were carved in stone.
Personally, I have not had sex with a male in over 25 years nor do I have any desire to. I never think about them, get attracted or want to (ugh) date a man. I used to open doors for guys when I was a teen and still finding my true sexuality. The boys I thought I like all turned out to be gay. They also happened to be pretty like girls. Ta-da! I knew very early on where my heart was. Of course, I find some men (mostly actors) to be attractive from the neck up but I still don't want to be with them.
Why marginalize lesbians and throw all this nonsense at them when most lesbians have had to process their own identities before realizing they solely loved women. We have been castigated for too long by society's and religions' heterosexual values - do we really need more bullshit spewing forth on this website? We are everywhere and one size does not fit all.
There's no need to justify to what I believe are trolls among us who want to get a rise from us to give themselves a sense of power and control. Instead, we should create a supportive safe AE forum that nurtures our true selves, whether it be lesbian, bi or the rest of the GLBT rainbow.
Personally, I'm just turned off by the psychobabble that some of these topics cover and I wouldn't be surprised that some posters are really men who want to have a go at us. I have pretty good Troll Radar and I say let's stop feeding them and they'll go elsewhere.
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Comments
Having Positive Centered Topics Geared Towards W-L-W
www.myspace.com/lunakiss7.com
I really would like to see this as a safe place. We post too much negative things. Some of the stuff written bore me. I post when I like helping or giving another female some advice or a different perspective on forums but lately that's been kinda pf sensitive. You don't have to defend your sexuality to validate someone's warped view of it. Just let them be especially after you had to skool them on some things. If they still don't get it, then you don't need to stay there and educate. Move on.
I think Sunnyboi, it's because we're womyn and roles have already be set b/f we were born. When certain womyn who don't conform to scoiety's set standard of womynhood and life we can shun and outsted and not taken seriously as true 'different" beings. However, those who folllow their own journey are truest of them all.
It is aggravating to read such nonsense and such disrespect that it bothers me why even go to the extreme to counteract our very existence. What's the purpose? What's the true reasoning behind this "psychobabble" as you put it? I like that word "psychobabble'. We need to keep creating forum topics that are positive centered on what Lesbanism is or "in the life" or womyn loving womyn environment. Donate out free time to that. What do you think,Sunnyboi?
A line taken from my poem "She" It is SHE who awakens my soul..."
thefemininedivine.blogspot.com
I think you're right Lunakiss
We need to keep creating forum topics that are positive centered on what Lesbanism is or "in the life" or womyn loving womyn environment. Donate out free time to that. What do you think,Sunnyboi?
I'm absolutely there for creating positive centered topics. I've always been a 'the glass is half full" kinda of person. Well, actually, my response to that one is the glass is neither half full or half empty - the glass is just too large too start with! :)
(*standing ovation*)
Hear Hear!
I read both of those ridiculous 'Bisexual lesbians' threads, and I really, really, really wanted to comment... but I restrained myself as I knew that I would simply spew and rant like a volcano for several paragraphs, and not make much sense in the process due to my mind-melting annoyance and frustration.
You have managed to calmly and neatly say precisely everything that I feel and wanted to say about the subject.
Thank you Sunnyboi!
Hip To The Beat, Mommie-O!
Why thank you, Sorcha
I'd been meaning to post this for awhile and didn't want to add to those other threads. It's good to get feedback from you.
I agree with you, but some
I agree with you, but some lesbians need to remember that when marginalzing us and saying bisexual women don't exist. the knife cuts both ways.
As for the "bisexual lesbain" thing, isn't that just a name for a degree of bisexuality, i.e. women who are bi but prefer women, but still want to be with a man sometimes? If you'd rather we just call ourselves just "bi" that's fine, but that doesn't mean we don't exist either. I have yet to meet a bisexual woman who says true lesbians don't exist. Just remember it's a 2 way street on that one.
Read this study:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080116080306.htm
This is exactly the problem
Just because a lesbian says she's just gay doesn't mean she's saying anything against bisexuality or that bisexuality doesn't exist. I don't feel that there's any space on this site where lesbians can just be lesbians. Where we're not being constantly reminded that there are people who aren't lesbians. We KNOW this. We're not all biphobic. There was absolutely no reason for you to jump in and remind the lesbians that there are bisexual women. No one in this thread said that bisexual women don't exist.
LGBT lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender. Bisexuals already have a label, and I wish more bisexuals would feel comfortable embracing that label instead of going the "no label" or coopting the lesbian identity. Be proud to be bisexual, own it. Because if you don't, someone else will.
Bravo!
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Thx, GrrrlRomeo.
I never said that the writer
I never said that the writer of the article said that bisexuality doesn't exist. She obviously did say it does. What I said, if you bothered to read it, was that SOME lesbians say that it doesn't, and I've encountered several on this website as well and in real life. As for my identity, I am VERY open about it and I don't apologize for it.
More power to you for being
More power to you for being openly bi, kudos.
But I think what they may have been getting at is a comment about lesbians marginalzing bi women is superfluous in this thread as the thread is about people (trolls) stating matter of factly that lesbians don’t exist because all lesbians are really bi women deep down. A statement that is unfounded, lesbians aren’t bisexual women that call themselves lesbians. We are lesbians, ie not into dudes.
Do I think there is a problem with some, not all, lesbians marginalizing bi women? Yes I do, however, this thread wasn’t really about that at all. Maybe we could have another thread for that and discuss it there?
sure, sounds good. and I
So who said real lesbians don't exisit?
It wasn't sweetvanilla, A Real Lesbian is what she claims to be.
Perhaps you think it was me?
Well sorry it wasn't me either.
So who was it then?
What are you talking about???
It wasn't sweetvanilla, A Real Lesbian is what she claims to be.
Perhaps you think it was me?
Well sorry it wasn't me either.
So who was it then?
Umm, sweetvanilla is probably a troll and I've said this before in other posts. However, it's funny that you refer to "A Real Lesbian" because you cite so many clinical variations of lesbians in other threads.
Those two trolled threads are what prompted me to start this topic, that's all. I wasn't pointing anything toward you at all. Actually, your name "Proud2bBi" says it all so why would I imply that you said 'real lesbians don't exist.' ???"
I really would love to see some positive input from other women who are proud to be lesbians because we exist even though the media has called us 'invisible' for far too long.
???
Those threads sweetvanilla started.
So would I.
You know something else?
I wouldn't have posted the above question in this thread if you had not just pissed at me with your nasty little "classic psychobabble" jibe.
But you've got me really pissed now with how you responded to me in that thread so here's a nasty little jibe for you sista -
Why would a real lesbian be soooo over men then? What she been doing with men that she needed to get soooo over?
Yes that's a nasty little jibe. I should be ashamed. But I'm not.
And you know what? I need a girlfriend who is "soooo over men" like a hole in the heart.
No! Not t coz I want to share her with a man. It's because if she's with me I want her to be with me because she's into me. Not because she had one too many crap experiences with men and decided to give the lesbian option a go.
'Sooo over' is an expression
I wouldn't have posted the above question in this thread if you had not just pissed at me with your nasty little "classic psychobabble" jibe.
But you've got me really pissed now with how you responded to me in that thread so here's a nasty little jibe for you sista -
Why would a real lesbian be soooo over men then? What she been doing with men that she needed to get soooo over?
Yes that's a nasty little jibe. I should be ashamed. But I'm not.
[over men" like a hole in the heart.
No! Not t coz I want to share her with a man. It's because if she's with me I want her to be with me because she's into me. Not because she had one too many crap experiences with men and decided to give the lesbian option a go.
Sorry I pissed you off but I calls it like I sees it.
You are coming out of left field in assuming I had crap experiences with men and decided to become a lesbian. Listen, I was a full-blown real lesbian when I had so-called 'experiences' with men. At that time, 25 years ago, there were societal and family pressures bugging me to see what the other side was like; get married, have kids, blah blah. So I saw what I was supposedly 'missing' and realized I wasn't missing anything. If you can't get that then I feel sad for you. I know who and what I am and proud to be a LESBIAN. Case closed.
I hope you will 'get over' being pissed off because it's not productive and you lose your power by letting one comment get the better of you. Again I'm sorry if I insulted you but your tomes in that thread started it.
And I ain't your sistah.
Yeah. I know.
I wouldn't have posted the above question in this thread if you had not just pissed at me with your nasty little "classic psychobabble" jibe.
But you've got me really pissed now with how you responded to me in that thread so here's a nasty little jibe for you sista -
Why would a real lesbian be soooo over men then? What she been doing with men that she needed to get soooo over?
Yes that's a nasty little jibe. I should be ashamed. But I'm not.
[over men" like a hole in the heart.
No! Not t coz I want to share her with a man. It's because if she's with me I want her to be with me because she's into me. Not because she had one too many crap experiences with men and decided to give the lesbian option a go.
You have a funny way of saying you're sorry - "Yawn" (that's your yawn - not mine )
I was just giving you a bit of tasteless tit in return for your thoughtless tat.
Yanking your chain a bit, that's all. Hence:
And even though I told you right then and there it was a nasty little jibe & acknowledge I should feel ashamed to make it - you still took it seriously it seems (sigh). Hence:
You had a very heteronormative upbringing and background (unlike me).
But that's what you actually had to soooo get over - not men. You were never into men.
If that means you hope I will not stop posting on this forum then you may rest assured that I will not. You may also rest assured that I will also continue to post at considerable length if I feel like it - and have the time.
You can read my posts from A2B or from A2Z and back again. It's your choice. I'm not posting for your benefit or to suit your attention span.
I was born a lesbian so stop making silly assumptions
You had a very heteronormative upbringing and background (unlike me).
But that's what you actually had to soooo get over - not men. You were never into men.
You are turning out to be a gasbag. You know nothing at all about my upbringing. How dare you assume that I'm gay because of my family and background. I really believe I was born gay and whenever men came into the situation they all but confirmed what I knew already. Got it?
Why is it that so many bisexual women, like you, say they 'were born that way' yet a lesbian is negated that same reason. The homophobes out there would applaud your off-the-wall comment because they've been saying crapola like that for years.
I'm sorry to interrupt this
I'm sorry to interrupt this conversation and I agree with your topic etc. However, i believe you are assuming that proud2BBi has suggested that lesbians are not born that way. I don't think she ever did that. If straight and bi people are born of their orientation so are lesbians. Being one myself I agree with that point. What I think Proud2BBi was saying is that some environments can make it tougher to come out than others. And I think coming out 25 years ago as lesbian/gay would be much harder because of less acceptance of different sexual orientations. It's still hard today in some countries and cultures compared to others. I think most environments are heteronormative and it is easy for that to be an obstacle for LGBT coming out. People who come from liberal countries/cultures etc. will most likely have an easier time in discovering their true identity than those who are pressurized by others to act in a certain way.
Also, I am a bit disappointed and perplexed that you would not consider Proud2BBi a "sistah." I would like to know why that is so. Families have disagreements, objections to what members within have said but they should still respect each other at the end of the day. Bisexuals are an important part of the LGBt family and we shouldn't, intentionally or unintentionally, exclude them. Divide and rule is also a strategy homophobes are very comfortable and skilled in.
Why is this important to me personally? It is because I find that this attitude of "otherness" in the LGBT community extends to not only bisexuals but LGBt of color, or those with minority beliefs hard to understand. Questions doubting the gayness of LGBT of color, denying them entry to clubs as a result or persistent questions about "how hard it must have been." I am not trying to act the victim but these questions do get asked and some LGBT of color do not feel accepted in the wider LGBT community.
After Prop 8 the blame game and name calling by some gays towards African Americans was encouraged by opponents of marriage equality and this further isolated African American LGBT making them feel like they had to choose. Is this right, especially considering the fact that their views and opinions about reaching out to minority communities were silenced by the LGBT leadership?
Just some general questions not personally directed to you or anything. Does one have to have the same background and history to be considered a "sistah" in the general use of the word? Would you consider minorities in the LGBT community, for eg. lesbians of "color", as "sistahs" in the fight for LGBT equality?
I don't think the LGBT community should avoid tackling issues like biphobia and racism in the community as they do exist. Especially racism as that often goes unacknowledged. Similarly, I believe LGBT minorities, bi people and those seen as minorities in the LGBT community have a responsibility to confront and speak out against homophobia in their wider community. If we are hostile to each other and exclude each other then why should people, not part of our group, care for our struggles.
Many questions so little time
Hi Ria, Thanks for your comments and observations. I will try to sincerely answer in the same spirit as you wrote.
1. I really don't know what Proud2bBi meant by some of her comments to me. I'm sure she'll give you a lengthy update of what she meant. I can't speak for anyone but myself.
2. 25 years ago, 45 years ago or now - it's still hard to come out and be accepted as a lesbian or bisexual.
3. You say "People who come from liberal countries/cultures etc. will most likely have an easier time in discovering their true identity than those who are pressurized by others to act in a certain way." So I ask you which 'liberal country/culture' are you referring to? IMO we are backwards in the US compared to countries in Europe. We still have DADT, same sex marriage in only two states and ignorance galore - i.e., Proposition 8. We had former President Bush who wanted to rewrite the Constitution so that marriage was only between a man and woman and President Obama who has strongly stated that he only believes in marriage between a man and a woman and civil unions for GLBT people. We are making some progress - but it's painful like watching paint dry.
4. Of course, I consider bisexual people (men and women) as part of the GLBT population. I am just not a fan of being called 'sistah' or 'sister' when it's meant sarcastically.
5, You ask "Would you consider minorities in the LGBT community, for eg. lesbians of "color", as "sistahs" in the fight for LGBT equality?" Definitely! I have many friends and acquaintances of many nationalities and color. I've marched in so many Gay Pride parades with so many 'sistas' from all walks of life. We march for similar reasons - we're gay women and want to be visible to all the people who show up to watch, the politicians and the media. Hey I'm from New York City and live in Harlem which is becoming a very trendy hood. I like and can respect every human being I meet - but some I like and respect more than others. If I don't feel I'm in a safe situation or place (mentally & physically) then I shut down no matter who you are. Skin color means nothing to me. It's the person first and foremost.
You say "If we are hostile to each other and exclude each other then why should people, not part of our group, care for our struggles." Agreed but I still realize there is hostility within various groups of the GLBT community. We are all human and people often get caught up in their own comfort zone. I've met all types of people and it sometimes can depend on the situation of why they appear 'hostile.' I'm not condoning hostile behavior but just being realistic. I'd rather everything be peachy but opinions do differ and sometimes disagreements get heated and hurtful words are spoken. Words are powerful and can heal or hurt.
Well, I hope I've answered some of your questions. It's getting late - night night ;)
By the way, thanks for posting cause I felt the thread was becoming off topic.
Best, Sunnyboi
Thanks Sunnyboi for your
Thanks Sunnyboi for your detailed response. I appreciate it. I will also try to answer your questions in the same spirit that you wrote them in.
1. I'm sure proud2bbi will let us know what she meant in her comments.
Personally, I can't take people like sweetvanilla seriously who try to invalidate the lesbian identity. You don't see bi and gay men trying to invalidate their own sexual orientation. I'm sure lesbians who get killed, beaten and executed in countries like Iran, Iraq and other countries where being gay is a jail sentence will realize that they could have "hidden" who they are if they tried.
“All This Torture Just For Being a Lesbian”
http://ukgaynews.org.uk/Archive/07/June/2602.htm
2. It's definitely true that coming out isn't easy, no matter what your background, but i'm sure it's better than 25 years ago. People are more aware and accepting of gay people and there are more resources out there for us. Society is definitely becoming less ignorant even though not all individuals may be.
3. By liberal countries I meant those countries which are sexually more liberal. Like Europe, US, Canada, some countries in South America Australia, South Africa, NZ etc. In contrast to most countries in Asia, Africa, Middle East and elsewhere. Also, liberal cultures to me are individualist cultures or those that respect the rights of individuals to be who they want. Unlike, collectivist cultures where other people have more say and influence into your life and the decisions you make. We may still have DADT, DOMA compared to other countries but I think that's slowly changing and in 5 years we'll at least be rid of DADT. I don't think SSM will be such an issue 5 years from now for most of the population.
4. Sorry for assuming that you meant the "sista" in a not so nice way. I was just questioning about it because i didn't think, according to your previous comments, that you would have meant it in such a way.
5. Thank you for those words. Sometimes some people aren't as accepting. NYC is definitely a very diverse place. I'm also happy to hear that you can like and respect all human beings you meet. I'm not proud to admit this and I like who I am but sometimes I wish I was "Caucasian" because I feel people around me would accept me as a lesbian more, that I would have white gay people approach me for friendship more often and I would also have more dating opportunities. I don't have any preferences when it comes to dating people but I find that for some people they are open about not wanting to date people who are different. I also feel that less people would question whether I was a lesbian or not. That less people in gay clubs would ask me whether i'm in the right place.
You're right. It's not realistic to assume that there are going to be no disagreements or everyone's going to accept and understand you no matter how hard you to try.
Thanks for your response. I wish I had more friends like you and I wish that there were more people like you out there.
All the best,
Ria
We're All A Minority
We're all a minority. I'm not part of a majority. I'm lower-middle class androgynous looking gay woman living in a sexist, racist, homophobic part of the country where just being soft butch you get weird looks.
I do not have priviledge just because I'm white. And I certainly don't have priviledge because I'm gay instead of bisexual. Where I live, it doesn't matter if you're gay or bisexual, you're still queer...black queer, brown queer, white queer...queer is queer.
I'm not trying to play the bigger victim here, I just want a space free of accusations, assumptions and judgment...and that includes not being accused of being racist, or biphobic or other shit that I'm not, or having priviledge that I don't have.
I was not refering to you
I was not refering to you in my comment and I think i mentioned this in another one of my posts. Even in all minority groups there are majority subgroups and minority subgroups and we need to understand each other better. This is true not only for the US but for all countries in the world and is nothing to take personally.
I have lived in a part of the country which could also be described as sexist, racist and homophobic so I know what you mean. You may not be part of the majority group of society (which, might, in this case be straight and white) but you do belong to the majority group in the LGBT society. I don't see how a minority within that group voicing their opinion and their personal experiences can be seen as "accusations, assumptions and judgement" of being "racist, biphobic..." Racism, homophobia and biphobia are not limited to the US or to white people. The need to put down other more unfortunate than us is a universal prejudice. I don't see where white privilege comes into it. If I was living in a majority brown or black country I'm sure that prejudice and bigotry would still be around.
People of all races can be homophobic and racist. I make it a point to call out any bigotry and prejudice that I hear whether it is directed at a majority or minority group. This doesn't mean that i'll be silent about my experiences because i won't. If I don't speak out about the prejudices that I feel I am encountering, who will? And if you don't know about something you can't change.
I also want a space free of accusations and assumptions but I'm not going to censor my feelings or emotions or my real life experiences. Not online at least. Neither would I ask you to censor your opinions.
Personally
Here's the problem. I'm a lesbian. That's my identity. When people talk about lesbians this and lesbians that...you are talking about something that I am and that other people on this site are.
If someone makes a topic about bisexual issues, I would not go in that topic and start talking about lesbian issues. I know our issues aren't always the same. It's not about censorship, it's about respecting other people and giving people space.
What assumption?
"Family pressures bugging me" sounds like a heteronormative background to me.
I'm not daring to assume any such thing. Why should I?
I "got it" - & I never didn't get it.
"bisexual women" like me???
You're telling me I'm saying things that I'm not.
Maybe possibly some bisexual woman has said these things to you - really said these things to you - in the past. I don't know. That's not an assumption - just trying to figure out why you'd say that.
Well some of them might get some kind of satisfaction out of seeing us bickering and believe that it proves some point that it doesn't.
I don't really care that much if I was born bi or if you were born gay. I'm much more concerned that anyone should see being gay or bi as a problem.
There's nothing wrong with being gay, lesbian or bi. Nothing at all. It isn't a problem.
The people who think it is a problem are the ones who have a problem.
And I wasn't being sarcastic when I called you sista. But I was feeling a bit exasperated with your seeming hostility towards me so it probably wasn't a good time to address you that way.
I'd really rather keep out of this thread now I think.
No misunderstandings here
I don't really care that much if I was born bi or if you were born gay. I'm much more concerned that anyone should see being gay or bi as a problem.
The people who think it is a problem are the ones who have a problem.
And I wasn't being sarcastic when I called you sista. But I was feeling a bit exasperated with your seeming hostility towards me so it probably wasn't a good time to address you that way.
I'd really rather keep out of this thread now I think.
I agree! Being bi or gay is not a problem My basic intention was to start a topic that I thought was timely and other posters here seemed to agree. I have always embraced my sexual orientation as a gift. That's right - I was born that way and God doesn't make mistakes.
I've never felt hostility toward you although I did use the word 'psychobabble' in another topic but I didn't realize you were a bit thinskinned because sometimes you can be pretty rough in some of your other posts to others. Oh well, I'm sorry if I appeared hostile but the door swings both ways. Some of these topics get heated and draw some very thought-provoking comments. We're not in a vacuum here and as long as we stay on topic and not get personal by 'going for the throat' then I don't believe it's true hostility but that's my take on it.
If you'd rather keep out of this thread, that's your choice but if you want to add anything to the topic, that's what the AE forums are about.
Beef? No Thanks.
You two appear to be having some personal beef or something from another thread that the rest of us may not be able to speak to. I think Sunnyboi's topic is a good one...in of itself.
But what is this picking on "sooo over men"? Look, every woman is raised to think she's supposed to be attracted to men. And for most lesbians, realizing that you're not attracted to men is part of the process of realizing that you're a lesbian. Lesbians aren't lesbians because they've had crap experiences with men.
If a lesbian has a relationship with a guy, but doesn't know she's a lesbian...the experience probably will be crap because it won't be fulfilling.
How did it get to where'd I'd have to be explaining and defending teh gay on an LGBT site?WTF?
Touché
How did it get to where'd I'd have to be explaining and defending teh gay on an LGBT site?WTF?
I hear you loud and clear and you're right.
Frankly, GrrrlRomeo, I'm starting to wonder if there's more B(i) than L(ez) on AE. If you look at the forum categories, there's one labeled Bisexual with several sub-categories. This is all fine and well with me but what I object to is the constant attempt to dilute and marginalize women who identify as strictly lesbians. I've never heard of so many labels and theories about gay women until I joined AE. I think AE is a great informative and entertaining website but I got tired of hearing about the so-called Kinsey scale as I'm a person - NOT a number on a scale.
i respect all women gay, bi and straight and in return I ask they respect and support the lesbian culture for what it is and not try to overanalyze why we aren't with men. That's so obvious to me - we're not with men because (let's say it loud and clear) we're lesbians and solely love women.
Phases?
I don't know if there are more bisexual women, it might just be that there are lots of women at different points in their own process. There's a lot of young women. And I think people who are still searching and figuring things out are drawn to message boards.
I'm one of those "gold star" lesbians that never slept with a man. I don't think I'm special, elite or some purist. I just realized I was a lesbian early and I was never one to cave to peer pressure as a teenager. I dated maybe three guys in high school and I broke up with them, not because they were crappy or anything.. They were nice guys, I just knew I wasn't interested in making out with them let alone have sex with them.
I knew I was attracted to girls I guess around 8th grade. I didn't think anything of it I guess because I didn't know any other gay people, I didn't know it was signficant. All my friends were talking about boys and I was trying to see what they saw.
And then I fell in love with a girl, really hard and that's when it hit me that I'm never going to feel this way about a guy. I just knew it as truth. I may think a guy is cute or nice but I knew it would never be on the level of how I felt about girls.
When I started going to a youth group for gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans and questioning teens there were kids who came in questioning and left straight. Some came in thinking they were bi and realized they were gay or vice versa. And it was always treated as okay...whatever the journey, wherever you end up is your truth. We questioned ourselves, but we didn't question each other.
But here it's like people who are questioning themselves feel the need to question not only everyone else, but the whole identity, culture and really the whole concept of sexual orientation. I don't know why some people are straight, some are bisexual and some are gay. I just know that they are and I respect that.
I am no longer in any questioning, soul searching, analyzing stage and haven't been for 16 years.
Love the new topic
I do find it funny that one bisexual posted on here in defense of bisexuals when they were never brought up in the first place, then for another one to ask if this post was in response to something she said. It's a post about real lesbians aka women who only like women, so how they popped in with those remarks me go hmmm.
I just don't understand what scares people about the fact that it is possible to have women who are only attracted to men and will never be attracted to a man....in the same way straight people will never be attracted to a person of the same sex. We're here, women that are 100% queer, so get use to it.
If you'd bothered to
If you'd bothered to actually read my posts, you'd realize (hopefully) I wasn't "defending" anyone, I was making a point about invisibility, and yes, they were mentioned, although only passing. I never said "real lesbians" don't exist, and considering I'm in a happy relationship with a woman, I'm not exactly scared of being attracted to one now am I? Maybe it's you who has the problem with someone other than a 100% lesbian saying something.
Sounds like a form of defense to me
"I agree with you, but some lesbians need to remember that when marginalzing us and saying bisexual women don't exist. the knife cuts both ways."
Nowhere in the first post of this topic was that ever brought up, so the fact that you just bring it up is going to seem like it's coming out of left field.
If you truly feel that you need to make a point about invisibility of bisexuals, then make a new topic about that very issue. This way you can talk to people who feel the same way you do.
"I never said "real lesbians" don't exist, and considering I'm in a happy relationship with a woman, I'm not exactly scared of being attracted to one now am I?"
Now if you as you put it bothered to actually read my post, then you'd realize (hopefully) that the second part of that post had nothing to do with you. I was making a general statement about people who can't fathom the idea of a lesbian who will never want to be with a man or be with a man. I don't know why you had to bring up the fact that your with a woman as if you need to validate something, you say your a bisexual so there was a chance of that being the case anyways.
Happy for you and your happy relationship.
"Maybe it's you who has the problem with someone other than a 100% lesbian saying something."
Oh yeah cause in my post I also said fu@k anyone who's not 100% lesbian rrrright. So are you saying that you are a lesbian, or were you just trying to be a wise guy?
Since when is having pride in being 100% lesbian as I will call myself equal to having something against people who are not? I have friends that have pride in being 100% straight, and they have nothing against people who are not...........so how you got from point A to Z is up in the air.
Now it does sound like your in defense mode.
Once more: We're here, women that are 100% queer, so get use to it.
MIzz M - You Missed The Point
www.myspace.com/lunakiss7.com
Why is it you solely missed the point of what Sunnyboi was saying? Why is it you can't comprehend what was being said? Why is it you feel offended that no one is talking about men from your hetegeneous pov? Why is it you can't wrap your around womyn talking about womyn w/o talking about Men? I want you to answer this questions b/c I think you're comng from a straight-mnded, hetero-living world. You're bi in spirit. Please get in touch your womyn loving self and get on board of discussing about womyn only on a womyn centered site regardless if you're a Lesbian identified womyn or bi- identified womyn. The point is we want to talk about womyn. There is nothing wrong about discussing womyn. So get with it.
Geez, too many hetero-centered thinkers on this site.
PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME A PM ABOUT MEETING WOMYN ON ANOTHER SITE. I'M NOT INTO THE DATING SITE ADVERTISMENT. GREATLY APPRECIATED!
I never said I was offended.
I never said I was offended that no one was talking about men. Where on earth did you get that?? Don't any of you people read? I said that bi's often experience invsibility and denial from too many in the lesbian community, from SOME lesbians. I was comparing it to what she said, the different kinds of invisbility from the the straight and the gay worlds, not being "offended". I was also reacting to one post that seemed to be implying that "bisexual lesbians" don't exist, whereas I heard that was just a name for bi women who prefer women but still like a man occasionally. I've heard those words used in the community many times. Why am I suddenly "hetero-centered" now? Is it b/c I dared to mention something about bis? Why not call me "bi centered" then? I never said this wasn't a women centered site or that some women didn't like just women. When did I mention MEN??? I don't come from a hetro centered world honey, I struggled with being in the closet of 14 years, and then came out to not only face prejudice from the straight world but from some in the gay world too, so maybe YOU need to get with it. You get on me for getting "defensive", but you just pulled out a whole bunch of stuff I never even said.
Agree.
And I'll make it short.
Monosexual people are not a myth. They actually do exist. And the word "lesbian" is reserved for homosexual women. It's really time some people out there get over it.
Sidenote: I find the remark "from the neck up" interesting. I've seen pictures (but only few) of the young Keanu Reeves and Johnny Depp on which their facial features had a certain feminine vibe to them (but only if the facial hair is invisible). But for me the effect gets totally lost the moment I see them in motion in a movie. Just me?
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"Reason obeys itself. Ignorance submits to what is dictated to it." - Thomas Paine
Sorry, but I don't agree with you
My attitude towards my sexuality is non-political. I think that lesbians who have sex with men but not have committed relationships with them are perfectly well within the "lesbian" guidelines for me. I have a more liberal view on sex, and I honestly think that sometimes, with the right person, sex needs to be just sex. If you're engaging in said behavior with men, then whatever, it's your own right.
However, I seldom try to impose this (very personal) view of mine on other people, i.e,. tell others that they MUST follow it. To me, sexuality is a personal thing and whatever people's views on it are, must be respected. Now, this goes both ways: lesbians need to respect other lesbians' views on sexuality, and heteros and bisexuals need to respect each others' views on this issue as well.
In my view, it's difficult enough to find our places in this world, and by being intolerant of differing attitudes that helped people get through their lives is, again in my view, not right and unfair.That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
It seems
that you can't just have a topic to talk about what it is like to be a lesbian, not bisexual, or straight but just a lesbian anymore on here. Someone will jump in and find something to complain about.
I get it, some people who are either straight or gay will have sexual relations with a person of the same sex or opposite sex. It's life stuff happens.
Whats wrong with stating that real lesbians do exist and are soooo over men? I think this has more to do with a double standard in society at the root of how this can and will bother some folks. Why is it okay for a girl to kiss another girl or even sleep with one and still be thought of as straight, but if a guy does the same thing he is forever gay in the eyes of his peers?
Really just a few threads
Whats wrong with stating that real lesbians do exist and are soooo over men? I think this has more to do with a double standard in society at the root of how this can and will bother some folks. Why is it okay for a girl to kiss another girl or even sleep with one and still be thought of as straight, but if a guy does the same thing he is forever gay in the eyes of his peers?
because of misogyny and male chauvinism?
I don't think this site has been taken over by women who question the existence of female homosexuality. It's really just a a few threads that have gotten a lot of heated attention lately.
I don't see what's "wrong" with the Kinsey scale, as by having a "6" it does acknowledge that there are people who are 100% gay.
-Amy
More than just a few threads
I don't think this site has been taken over by women who question the existence of female homosexuality. It's really just a a few threads that have gotten a lot of heated attention lately.
Amy, the troll's two threads did get a lot of heat but I believe the topics under the Bisexual categories show some women often do question the existence of a woman being exclusively gay. Just by casually reading some of the topics, there seems to be an undercurrent of undermining lesbians' exclusive feelings toward women. Perhaps this is the nature of bisexual questioning and growth but I personally resent the fact that lesbians are not recognized for being women loving women. Here are just a couple of topics in the Bisexual columns but I'm sure if I dealt even further into the older threads, I'd find more people questioning women who are exclusively gay.
Question for the Bisexuals?
Not all of these three topics question true lesbianism but there's enough in all of them to illustrate the issue. Frankly, lesbians are not invisible and there are some that are not questioning their sexuality, are happy with being who they are and, possibly like me, are wary of all the labels/categories gay people are boxed into.
Not a few
I don't think it's a few threads either. I've been coming here for awhile and the vibe I get is that it's okay to totally diminish the lesbian identity and experience. Crap like lesbians are closed minded because they "limit" themselves to one gender and they're biphobic, and everyone's really bisexual etc.
100% gay? Please. It's not a purity test. Because then you're saying that if someone is merely 99% gay then they're actually bisexual, and that is BS. By making us adhere to some fracking scale you make it black and white, and bisexual this gigantic all shades of gray. I'm secure enough in my homosexuality to admit when I think is a guy is nice looking knowing that it doesn't make me bisexual.
And the irony, the straight mainstream culture thinks all lesbians are bisexual too. This is common. I mean...so many think that the definition of lesbian is a woman who is attracted to both men and women but has chosen women.
New forum section needed?
AfterEllen is supposed to be a web site for "News, Reviews & Commentary on Lesbian and Bisexual women in Entertainment and the Media".
Maybe they should start a new separate forum area just for "Gay women" or "Lesbians" or whatever term will offend the least amount of people. I actually interpreted the fact that there was a token separate bisexual section buried in the miscellaneous area a sign that bisexual women were an afterthought on this site. It seems many people feel "my group" is treated worse.
I do empathize with people's frustration with having their sexual orientation questioned, or reading "you just haven't met the right guy yet". In all fairness, I've seen heterosexuality in women questioned and invalidated on this web site. I've seen posters make comments like "No women are straight around me" or imply that straight women don't really exist.
I don't see how the phrase "100%" gay is insulting, especially since the subject of this thread is real, total lesbians exist. Some activists find the Kinsey scale "biphobic" because it labels everything in "hetero" or "homo" terms.
Huh? Really?
"It seems many people feel "my group" is treated worse."
Since when did this become a pissing contest of who's treated worse? How did this get down to that? I, personally, have defended bisexuality. I feel biphobia is wrong. (And may I add here that not all lesbians are biphobic). At the same time I'm not going to be insulted or denied who I am, as a lesbian, either. I am a lesbian. I really don't give a damn if some jerk thinks I don't exist. The fact is: I do. Someone trying to close their eyes to me doesn't make me disappear. I know who I am. I'm a lesbian. So what. As much as biphobia is wrong so is turning frustrations around on all (or majority of) lesbians. How does that solve anything? All these wrongs are not equaling any right. What the hell is going on around here? Are you people seriously doing this? Seriously? We want the world to accept us all and yet look here at this stupid childish pissing contest going on amongst us. Really? A damn shame if you ask me.
--
http://www.drunkduck.com/Empathy/
I don't know either how this topic morphed into a pissing contes
"It seems many people feel "my group" is treated worse."
Since when did this become a pissing contest of who's treated worse? How did this get down to that? I, personally, have defended bisexuality. I feel biphobia is wrong. (And may I add here that not all lesbians are biphobic). At the same time I'm not going to be insulted or denied who I am, as a lesbian, either. I am a lesbian. I really don't give a damn if some jerk thinks I don't exist. The fact is: I do.
As the OP of thia topic, I was hoping to receive some positive input from other lesbians and/or bisexuals who understood my point, So far I got a couple of posts from someone who is pissed off at me from another thread and brought it here, Then we got more stuff positive and negative and somehow this topic is getting off-topic.
I do hope we hear from other women who identify as lesbians and share their feelings and thoughts with us.
many years ago...
Interesting...
Some people.."lesbians" politicize their identity although by definition they are not lesbians. These women I have come to know in my college campus I refer to them as "feminists who like the word lesbian" because let's face it, lesbians seem to get more street cred for being "feminist".
My mom uses the term bisexual in the worst way-the hetero-friendly way bi being a phase. This irks me because it smells of what Amy M says, "misogyny and male chauvinism". She hopes that I'm bi for the fact that I will end up with a man, ha!So bisexual women don't end up with women? Poppycock! I'm so tired of that and I'm tired of people seen as limited because women-only rock their universe.
Now lesbians who use "lesbian" and well frankly have sex with men remind me of this hip-hop group Young Black Teens who procliamed the being black(and I don't remember them being "black") was about a state of mind, yea, I went there, heh.
Yea, I'm still trying to figure that out.
Labels seem so pointless at times when fun fun fun things like this happens with the whole "lesbians are bisexual". I personally feel that there is still a lot of shame with being bisexual because what is so hard about owning it? Be proud! I rather date a (sexy) bisexual woman because they are like christmas; you're surprised and happy that you might have a chance with them. I just like honesty than some "lesbian" who for some reason has issues dealing with her frank bisexuality.
Now you can call yourself anything you want, I simply will give you a raised eyebrow when I find it funny (funny...queer).
Having repressed "heterosexual feelings"?...pass!
Political "lesbians"?
Ugh. They sure are a strange species. Luckily one which is about to become extinct. I have only come across very few specimens. But they are annoying. Why? Because as long as they are not talking about women's rights, saving the seals (or the whales) or vegetarian haute cuisine (nothing against all of that, all valuable and honourable causes), they just can't stop talking about guys. Quickest way to get me into facepalm mode.
I remember this young, and slightly overeager, girl who, after talking like a waterfall for 15 min, suddenly looked at me and asked "And you are a lesbian? I mean...a real lesbian? You do...stuff...with women?" Oh girl.....
funny...queer *tee hee*
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"Reason obeys itself. Ignorance submits to what is dictated to it." - Thomas Paine
*thumbs up*
I wish there was a button for "I like"
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
!!!!!
Heh, indeed with political lesbians b/c a lot of them seem to only want to talk about men, hmm. I react with a raised eyebrow or in more severe cases, I'm rubbing my temples.When I'm rubbing my temples, it's bad, really bad.
I was like, "Well if your a lesbian that dates men, then I'm a bisexual that does not want anything to do with men!" >_<
Lol, "A real lesbian..."
My other "favorite" lesbian is the heterosexual male. When I tell them I like women or I'm a lesbian (usually say gay). I get the "Hey we have something in common, I'm a lesbian too!"
*Rubs temples*
I'm getting to a point where I just say I like women...only and not bother with the whole labeling because some people don't get it. I wonder why maybe it's because of lesbians that sleep with men? You can stick feathers up your butt and call yourself a chicken, but I would call a doctor.
I saw the intention of the OP and was like okay lesbians are not unicorns and figments of my imagination.
As for invisibility of bisexual women, I see them everywhere not unicorns. I just think the context of the said bisexual woman is usually in a bad, sexist, "it's phase" context that does not help with the movement.
So yes, lesbians that ONLY have relations with women do exist. Yay.
I hear you.
You know, there was a time when it was enough to tell a guy who is hitting on me that I'm a lesbian. It got the point across. Today I have to tell them "No, I'm not one of 'those lesbians' you've heard about, you know, the kind which sleeps with men. And no, lesbian does not mean 'I don't want to marry you, but if you try hard enough I might allow you to shag me'.". Can be a bit annoying sometimes. But I think it also has to do with the simple fact that some men (not all) are a bit "pushy".
I see the visibility problem. But I wonder how they will be able to solve it if they keep flying under other labels. That's what I'm telling bi-girls over and over again. It's not that we would be living in Rainbow Paradise already, without any prejudices and hostility towards queer folks. Visibility still IS important.
You have to teach me how to rub those temples. Could come in handy. ;)
You are Soooo Queer, Tia...
...just sayin'.
(Busy Tuesday?)
Queer?
Well, I guess I am, in some way. But what does queer even mean? It can mean so many different things. Today nearly everything is somehow "queer".
I'm a proud true-born poly lesbian, hence, a witch. That's what works with me.
Maybe I would call myself a WOW, a Womens Only Woman, if not half the world population would think I'm talking about World of Warcraft. Damn you Blizzard! *shakes fist*
What does busy tuesday mean?
Busy Tuesday?
Well, that means...are you free on Tuesday?
What kind of fucking lesbian are you? BTW, speaking of political lesbians, I've always thought that if a dyke took over Germany we'd all be fucked (which is a plus in my book!).
I knew you were a witch when i first ran into you. Don't feel bad, I'm an Evil Angel, much the same thing in many ways.... :)