...but the fact that characters like this - predators, killers, or generally depressed women - are the ONLY kind of lesbians you see at your local movie theater. Literally - except for Imagine Me and You, which no one went to see, all 3 of the other theatrical releases in 2006 with lesbian characters portrayed them negatively (The Black Dahlia, Running With Scissors) or as long-suffering victims (V for Vendetta).

It's similar to when all the movies with prominent black male characters portrayed them as thugs, thieves or criminals - on an individual basis, some of them might have been excellent movies, but they were still part of a larger pattern of racism.

I'm tired of seeing movies in negative ways for lesbians and black people. I'm sure there are wonderful lesbians and straight people as well as black people, latin and other races as well as deaf people. We need more positive characters for lesbians role where people can understand that lesbian character and enjoy and root for lesbians and gays and beat the bad guys. I don't like stereotypes as in negative way. Deaf people prefer to be called "deaf", not hearing impaired or other terms for deaf people. I see that when film critics says "deaf and dumb" or "deaf and mute", it really bothers me because deaf people can do anything and there are some deaf people that has phd degree, doctors, lawyers, etc... and it's common that people don't understand deaf's culture. Gays and lesbians fought their rights as well as other races. It's deaf people's turn to fight their rights. To me, people in mainstream needs to understand that stereotypes is discrimination in some ways and look down on people who just are different than other people.

Susie

I saw NOTES ON A SCANDAL and wasn't offended by it.  I do, however, see everyone's point about the negative stereoptype of the predatory lesbian.  Sadly, we really haven't had a great, fun lesbian film since Bound 11 years ago. Perhaps if this movie had been made in the 80's, it would have played into the stereotype IMO, but I think the heterosexual audience that sees this film is smart enough to be able to discern the difference between one character and an entire group of people. Maybe it's just the enlightened heterosexuals that I have for friends, I don't know. Barbara IS a product of her time and her upbringing. Clearly, she's very disciplined and proper.  Who she is and seeing her struggle with that is, IMO, portrayed with sadness and pity as opposed to sensationalisticly.  The relationship between Barbara and Sheba is one of power, not sex(ok, ok the stroke my arm comment maybe not). To me, Sheba is the pathetic one in this movie, but I digress.  Somehow, Brokeback Mountain went mainstream, but it still portrayed the two leads as unhappy men, and it certainly doesn't turn out well for them. Doesn't that play into the stereotype mentioned in The Celluloid Closet as well?  NOAS hasn't gone mainstream, and I doubt it will unless the improbable happens and it wins a ton of Oscars.  Frankly, I think we have more to worry about from those ridiculous Girls Gone Wild videos and Howard Stern permeating the mainstream than this movie.....

I love IMY, and I disagree with this assessment, mainly because the movie doesn't shy from portraying Heck's pain. It's evident when he discovers who Rachel is in love with, and again after Rachel leaves to go for Luce. I think that was what made IMY more than just a minor rom-com for me.

Also, while Luce is clearly in love with Rachel, it is Rachel who pursues her, so it's the "straight" girl who pursues the lesbian, leading the breakup of her marriage, not the other way around.

I haven't seen Notes on a Scandal, so I can't talk about it in particular, but I think it's important to keep genres in mind here.

NOAS, The Hours and other such movies are generally heavy dramas with little light-hearted content. Same goes for Brokeback. Regardless of the characters' sexuality, there will probably be something heavy, depressing or sensational about them or what happens to them.

I think, as ohmycookie said, a lot of the problem is that there aren't many lesbians in comedies and romantic comedies. I'll go further and say you don't usually see them in the inspirational dramas (you know, the ones that end with the main character being applauded and hugged in slow motion, the rebellious guy from the wrong side of town making the winning touchdown and the beautiful but self-conscious girl singing a mushy song while her parents, who thought she was a talentless blob, cry at the beauty of her voice), either. Those are the movies that usually have nice, friendly, fun characters.

 But then, I actually think the depiction of gay men in some comedies (the lispy, loud-mouthed dude who makes random comments about hot asses and and worry about their eyebrows) is sometimes equally offensive to the predatory lesbian cliches.

[ADMIN EDIT] SPAM REMOVED

I would say there aren't enough lesbians in GOOD comedies. Notes on a Scandal was the best lesbian comedy I've seen in ages.

I really thought I was going to hate this movie. Homophobic, misogynistic movies that pretend to be high art (American Beauty is a good example) are one of those things that make my head go spinning around in anger. But I thought Notes on a Scandal was delightful. In a perverse way, Barbara was funny and even sort of charming. She's not going to be my new role model--yes, she's psycho, but she doesn't do anything that horrible. Sheba totally deserves what she gets. I think the dynamics between them are very interesting and realistic. And the ending...

SPOILERS 

[spoiler] is totally different from most homophobic movies--or films like Brokeback--in that nothing really bad happens to the lesbian. I kept expecting the film to get all Fatal Attraction, but Barbara doesn't physically harm anyone and is totally fine at the end, picking out her next "girlfriend." [/spoiler]

 Maybe I have just been sucked in by the aesthetics of a well-made, well-acted film. Certainly in comparison to Imagine You and Me, this is a masterpiece! IYM was one of the most boring, inane films I've ever seen. Sure, I would love to see more positive lesbian characters, but I want to see them in a good film!

And I have to add that the fact that 2 top notch actresses (whom I love) are in it makes it so much worse! So many comments I've read on various threads have talked about the outstanding acting. Of course they're good! That does not make their decision to act in movie any more valid, or the fact that this movie was made at this time any less reprehensible.

One day, when lesbian characters are a dime a dozen in the theatres, I would have no problems with a film such as "Notes". But until then, I'm not going to see it.

I saw Notes On A Scandal last week and found it a complex, disturbing, gripping film that makes you think and prompts discussion on a range of important issues.  How many movies can you say that about these days? 

Both Cate Blanchett and Judi Dench are wonderful in their roles and both characters have their flaws.  SPOILER ALERT : Barbara Covett (Judi)'s problem is not that she's a dyke, but that she repeatedly fixates on totally inappropriate, straight, women.  As a result, she's a bitter, lonely old woman.  I agree with the writer who referred to internalised homophobia, and also agree most viewers would be sophisticated enough to see Barbara's problems as character flaws rather than 'evil' lesbianism. 

Sure, we'd all love to see more dyke flicks where the women are positive, sexy role models.  (Personally, I loved Imagine Me + You - as well as When Night Is Falling, Desert Hearts and Bound.)  But something as smart and well made as Scandal deserves its place on the big screen.  I hope it gets a wide audience and provokes a million lively arguments! 

I loved the fact that Cate Blanchette's charcter was a Siouxsie and the banshees fan.

Never mind all the depressing pyscho dyke rubbish. You Want a nice happy feel good gay movie, go on  make one yourself :O)

I saw the movie and was transfixed.  <!Spoiler!>While Barbara denies her lifestyle to herself and her close family, her needs are met in a dysfunctional way.  However,anyone interpret the final scene as positive?  After "the public" or at least the representative of the public, the headmaster, threatens to out Barbara, she retires.  Now she is free to be herself.  When she chats with the young lady, I got the feeling that this was a genuine conversation, one where she gets the girl by being herself, rather than manipulation. 

 To me that makes the movie prohomo if I might say so myself.

I had no interest in seeing this film until I saw some of the comments on this site. So, last night I went (with my bi, and straight friend) and my feelings toward the film were kind of polarized.

On the one hand, the acting was superb, and my god - Cate Blanchette - that woman is gorgeous. Judy Dench was incredible - and yes the movie was funny and smart.

When we walked out my straight friend asked me what I thought of it. I told her that I didn't know - that I was still digesting the fact that the 'villan' was the lesbian. She immediately agreed and didn't like the fact either - her comments were that it wouldn't have been AS bad if she wasn't serial- and that if it was an isolated incident between Barb and Sheeba based on Barb's obsession for her it wouldn't have been as bad. 

I'm not sure about that though. In any case, I enjoyed the film but would probably like it more IF indeed there were more movies that were mainstream that portray their LGBT characters in a positive light. I didn't think the film was homophobic, though. I did think that Barb was. 

I watched the movie last week and I enjoyed it (even if the movie doesn't portray lesbians in a positive way). The acting was wonderful but what I loved the most was the music. It reminded me very much of the music from "The Hours". Maybe Phillip Glass made the music for both movies, I don't know.

I completely agree. Saw this at the weekend, and though I thought Dench's character was pretty nasty, she had my sympathy.

Plus, as you say, Blanchett's character deserves all she gets, regardless of the part that Dench played in her downfall.

One problem I had though, was with the young lad who played the schoolboy. I'm sorry to be mean, but he was a scrawny, pale, boy. I couldn't accept that someone as gorgeous as Cate Blanchett could be full of lust for this lad, and would risk her family and career and everything for him.

it is true that many of the girls in love with girls in the movies cry and kill themselves and are crazy but thats only because we are in the infancy of lesbian love on film.

there hasnt been a beautiful stereotype yet. but thats what movies make. representations- stereotypes...and all that

anyway its hard to portray both sides. the angst and the comedy. love and happiness etc.

imagine me and you tries, but its a lightweight feel good kind of thing that inst trying to make a social commentary. much like lost and delirious and my summer of love are supposed to be sad heartwrenching messes with young beautiful girls who arent accepted in their communities and suffer.

 Its hard to really complain when there is so little material to analyze. all movies are specific. notes on a scandal is not based soley on the dynamic between barbara and sheba. its also about a slutty teacher who sleeps with a minor and a student. and aging and depression. barbara is by no means the average movie lesbian.  If the happy in love lesbians were filmmakers we'd have our own estrogen fueled the Notebook etc.

love, a future filmmaker

i agree with sarah and Danygirl..

what's excellent for some individuals may not be true for others.. that's what makes market segmentation ironic  - when admen try to target specific groups while actually aiming to attract the entire humanity by overexploiting issues which they think are shocking.. argh!!!

i can't wait to see how lesbian love grows on film..

...however, we really can't expect movies to perfectly tell stories of our expectations unless they are the product of longitudinal surveys.. but still, it's imposssible to generalize.. i just hope there would be more appreciation than criticims for future lesbian movies - we want the truth and nothing but the truth.. 

While I often think that the gay community and its representatives occasionally grasp for injustices where there are none, just for the sake of reinforcing our martyrdom, I'm not sure this is one of those occasions.

When analyzing a movie in detail, you look for the motives behind scenes and story choices. When you have a psychotic and thoroughly unsympathetic female character in a movie or novel, is it really just a coincidence that the writer makes her a lesbian? I mean, does it really add so much to the story as a whole that it is defensible? Generally, I don't think so. And that she just happens to be a lesbian? Come on. A writer doesn't just add things like that for no reason. It's like saying that Michelle Pfeiffers character in Dangerous Minds just happens to be white.

There are real lesbian psychos out there, of course. But there aren't so many of them that the number of them we've seen portrayed in big movie productions is realistic OR justifiable. So I think the somewhat harsh criticisms of such portrayals discussed here are a good thing.

"for the sake of reinforcing our martyrdom"

I haven't seen notes on a scandal yet so can't comment on the movie itself but as for some of the arguments used so far...

I think druj has a point here!

I read all this talk of negative representation and all the sad end movies and then I looked at my fairly extensive movie library and wonder...what about; "imagine me and you" or "debs" or "nina's heavenly delight" or "goldfish memory" or "producing adults" or "red doors" or "saving face" or "kissing jessica steijn" or "when night is falling"?

All positive and happy ending portrayals! How come we very quickly forget about these movies in discussions such as the one going on in this thread? Even going as far as to try and interpret "imagine me and you" as negative? I mean...COME ON!!!

I don't blame straight people not being really interested in lesbian romance. Unless it's just a great movie as a movie, I am not really interested in straight romance.

When people treat us as lesser people we can consider ourselves victims of discrimination but as for representation in the movies? Lets face it people ... we are in the minority as far as numbers are concerned. Logically there are going to be less lesbian movies than there are straight movies. And I really have not seen more gay/lesbian villains than straight ones. Not even percentage-wise.

I just finished watching Notes on a Scandal.  I found nearly the entire movie difficult to watch.  Overall I was pretty disturbed by it.  This may be the most f'd up movie I've ever seen. 

_________

"If you go flying back through time, and you see somebody else flying forward into the future, it's probably best to avoid eye contact." - Jack Handey