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Lesbians Are Bisexual Part II: The ExplanationWOW!!!!!!!!! 90 replies in less than 12 hours LOL. Damn!! Ok, so I've been called a gay man, a misogynist gay man, a straight man, a misogynist straight man, a homophobic bi woman, a homophobic straight woman, a troll and probably some other things too, but you are all wrong. I am a 28 year old lesbian. It's not because a woman is a lesbian that she has to accept what other lesbians do. The lesbian community is not immune to criticism just because we are a minority. Black people can criticise other black people. Women can criticise other women. Gay men can criticise other gay men etc. Now, I did not write this post to offend. I did not use abusive language, graphic language yes, but not abusive. I also didn't call anyone any names. The reason you are all so angry is because lesbians don't like to talk about this subject. It's very taboo. It makes us all very uncomfortable. It made me very uncomfortable for a loooonng time but now I'm just being honest. You can call me whatever you want, but I'm not a troll. I'm just telling the truth and you all know it's the truth even though you don't want to admit it. Many of you have said in your replies that I'm wrong and completely crazy for saying these things. Well here are a few links that might change your mind: http://www.lesbilicious.co.uk/community/why-do-lesbians-love-gay-man-porn/ http://www.afterelton.com/node/22359 (Well well well, the girls of afterellen are talking about gay porn? Hmmm...)
http://gracethespot.com/?p=336 http://gracethespot.com/?p=305 (That blog is funny and talks about the excuses lesbians make about their attraction to men)
http://www.afterellen.com/node/29429 (Interesting quote from Dr. Diamond: "Similarly, two thirds of the lesbian women in Study A reported experiencing periodic attractions to men". Wow, two thirds of lesbians??? That doesn't leave a lot real lesbians out there. http://nymag.com/nymetro/nightlife/sex/columns/nakedcity/n_8301/
Also read the book "The Female Brain" by Dr. Louann Brizendine. It's a very recent book like 2007 or 2008 and there's a section on lesbians where if I remember correctly, she says that atleast 50% of lesbians enjoy sleeping with men. There's also the book "The Lesbian Sex Book or Guide (not sure)" which talks about how many lesbians get more sexual gratification from sex with men and also fantasize about men. There's much more research out there and many more books on lesbians attraction to men and hasbians. But then again, all you have to do is open your eyes to see what's going on. When I was younger and just out of the closet, I felt the exact same way as many of you. It was all about denial. Everytime I heard about a lesbian leaving her girlfriend for a man or sleeping with a man, I would say "Ohh well she was just bisexual to begin or she's trying to be straight to please society etc." Or when I heard about Joann Loulan, Anne Heche, Sinead O'Connor and Julie Cypher all leaving their girlfriends for men, again, I didn't want to think about it. To me, they were all stupid straight girls who had used their lesbianism for popularity. But then as the years went by I realized like Dr. Lisa Diamond says in her research, that for lesbians, attraction to men is the norm, not the exception. The only difference is that it's all a big secret. Lesbians are ashamed of this and rightfully so, because it shows that they need a man even if it's only occasionally and they've spent their lives telling society that they don't need men. I understand the shame and the discomfort with this. I totally get it, but it's still the truth. The reason I mentioned gay men is that I do believe they are much more gay than lesbians are. They make much more sense to me (No, I promise, I am not a gay man!!!). They don't get turned on by lesbian sex because of the women in it. The female body does not turn them on. Dicks, balls, sperm, cock-sucking, men's bodies turn them on so they like gay porn. Makes perfect sense to me! I've also never met a gay man who fantasizes about sex with women. I'm sure they exist but it's not common like it is for lesbians to fantasize about sex with men. I just don't understand lesbians for the most part and that's why I'm being honest about my feelings.
Submitted by sweetvanilla (12 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 10:10am. There's the truth and then there are the factsSubmitted by
Aya (877 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 12:03pm.The fact is these are bisexual women who prefer to call themselves lesbians. Anyone knows any real lesbians knows that are plenty that debunk all these "theories." We not only have to wonder about your intentions, but the intentions of those who have done the research you're citing, and how it may have been tailored to acheive the desired conclusions. Maybe when the day comes that women aren't indotrinated from birth with all things hyper hetero, lesbians will have a stronger sense of sexual identity.  Hmmm....Submitted by
KefLon (10 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 12:29pm.Well, I dream and fantasize about a lot of people but NOONE of them is a man.
 ...Submitted by
Katie!!! (66 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 12:45pm.if we were attracted to men as much as you say we are, we wouldn't call ourselves 'lesbians' we would class ourselves as either bi or straight...why would anyone want to risk being hated by homophobes etc. if they were straight?!?!? I think that either you are trolling to make us all angry, or you are trying to justify your feelings by acting like it's the norm...either way is twisted... I have never liked watching gay men sex, i have never fantasized being f***ed by a man (no lie) and i am well annoyed that you are accusing us all of lying to ourselves and covering it up!!! if you've nothing good to say, f*** off and either get a real life, or use a site that shares your view, cos this one obviously doesn't. in my opinion, if i could be straight, i probably would, because then i wouldn't have to put up with homophobic abuse etc. but since i'm not attracted to males either physically or mentally (other than as a friend) that sure as hell isn't going to happen. so thank you for pissing me off and putting me in a bad mood - i hope your happy.  godd your so rightSubmitted by
aphrodite (124 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 12:51pm.im off to shag a man.............. seriously are you for real?
I do not watch gay porn.. i do not watch straight porn. I call myself a lesbian because i have only ever been attracted to women. I think your making a sweeping statement whereas most things, it made be true in some cases it most certainly isnt in all! like somebody said above sexuality is complex..perhaps were not the ones in denial but your the ignorant one for having such a closed opinion!  ugh...another ignorant post from youSubmitted by
#1 (455 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 12:53pm." I'm just telling the truth and you all know it's the truth even though you don't want to admit it. " you really seem to have issues, just because this is true for you doesnt make it true for every lesbian! I know that you are the center of your world..(yay for you) ..but you stating your opinion, and then finding others with the same does not make it a fact... or the "truth" The only thing that is hard to "accept" about all this is you...it is hard to accept that someone like you who claims to be a lesbian, still claims to be...you are obviously bi and want to hear/believe that every lesbian is like you...we are not you are bi and there is nothing wrong with that...but please believe...there are lesbians out there that DO find males/gay or straight gross when it comes to sex... and do NOT need to think of males to orgasm...
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I am not the only one...Take my hand and join us and the world will live as one..."  You know...Submitted by
faerychild (89 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 1:22pm.It truly scares me when I come across someone (gay/straight/whatever) that truly thinks they have all the answers. That they alone have the inside track to ANYTHING, much less something so incredibly personal and life-altering as someone's sexual orientation. How very narcisstic and self-congratulatory. Not to mention damaging to our community as a whole. And how very sad. It seems this person (should it actually not be of the troll class) has substantial issues with how they identify, and is dealing with them by generalizing everyone else in order to normalize their own feelings, instead of dealing with them like the rest of us do. Yes, I feel revulsion for this person and their terribly uninformed opinion, but I also feel a great deal of pity. How desperate do you have to be to create a profile just to get your rocks off at calling true lesbians "fake" and seeing their reactions. I think this individual would be better off spending their time seeking counseling.
Happiness is not the absence of sorrow...it is the absence of fear...  HMMMSubmitted by
ca_butchie (1022 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 1:24pm.If you were looking at an orange would that make you an orange.? If you were looking at an apple would that make you an apple? The point sounds mute to me. Who you are attracted to does not define ones self it has always made me wonder why ones are so quick to put things in a box and define it black or white. But, what if you put the two together you get grey. and there are so many people that are grey it actually out weighs black or wite. As for 90 post in 12 minutes sounds like someone was just trying to shake a unopen pop bottle and see what the reaction was. And as far as the later part of that post on name calling. Im sure that just because people are lesbians, bi what ever label won't call you names its all apart of a mature conversation....... I mean i could say liar liar pants on fire, but that wouldnt be mature or reasonable just because i do not agree with your thoughts, seeing as it dosen't matter if you agree with mine. Just means diffrence of oppinons.  Member without any personalSubmitted by
Monique (883 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 1:35pm.Member without any personal data. I have only one thing to say:
"Ha ha HA! Mine is an evil laugh..."  Slightly confused...Submitted by
ChocolateSprinkles (102 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 2:01pm.You are saying that most lesbians are bisexual? So you would therefore refer to them as bisexuals. Yet you describe yourself as a 28year old Lesbian? Not Bisexual? So you don't include yourself in the catagory which you are talking about? It's one thing to generalise about the people within your catagory (still not acceptable by the way), but it is completely different if you don't even consider yourself to be a member of that catagory. Just an observation.  Troll Alert?Submitted by
El Doña (81 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 2:06pm.I think that I agree with Sunnyboi and others that you must be doing this for your own jollies. I feel sorry for you, in that you seem unable to grasp the fact that even while many lesbians have provided opinions counter to yours, you are (unwilling?, unable?) to acknowledge that you may be wrong or at least over-generalizing in how you characterize the libidos among the lesbian community. While you are right that "the reason you are all so angry is because lesbians don't like to talk about this subject. It's very taboo. It makes us all very uncomfortable," you are wrong about the reason. It hits a nerve for me because it's both NOT TRUE and because lesbians have taken many hits lately with some (PREVIOUSLY lesbian!!) characters in entertainment expressing and/or acting on attractions towards men. I quit watching Nip/Tuck when they killed off Portia's character and had Liz have sex with a man. Perhaps we as a AE community could agree on a time and date to stop indulging you, even if we are so outraged that we feel compelled to respond. So: Fellow AE community -- please join me in cutting off all viewing and discussion of this as of 5pm CST today (4 hours from now) in this and any other new threads.  Projecting Your Sexual AmbivalenceSubmitted by
Becky C. (150 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 2:31pm.You are really beating a dead horse. There is no question there is gender sliding and twisting--it has been discussed ad nauseum in academic circles. But your premise that "most lesbians are bisexual" says more about your sexual orientation and perhaps treatment at the hands of biophobic lesbians than anything universal. A lesbian is a woman who is attracted to women and is either nonplussed or repulsed by sex with men. That does not mean that she could not appreciate the aesthetic or even erotic features of the male form. I have often said that militant lesbians have no choice but to deny that creatures like Brat Bitt exist inorder to maintain their world view. But a lesibian (unlike a bisexual like Angelina Jolie) might appreciate Pitt's attractiveness but has no interest in fucking him. You have some obvious problems with your own sexulaity, and instead of dealing with your own situation wish to resolve it by projecting it as a universal principle applicable to all lesbians.  Ok I'mSubmitted by
gabdes (24 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 2:48pm.Just coming to terms with my sexuality. What I can say for myself is that one of the ways that leads me to believe I am not straight is because love scenes (don't watch porn) between two women turn me on where as two guys do nothing for me. And if it's between a man and a woman, I find myself watching the woman and not the man. And if you must know, ok I am sharing freely, it was also my fantasies of women that lead me to believe I am not straight. I do not have sexual fantasies about men. I have no problem having an orgasm while thinking about women.  Unfortunately thisSubmitted by
Tigerlily (255 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 3:51pm.Unfortunately this "explanation" doesn't explain anything. It isn't even based on a coherent argument, it's just a bunch of links and hearsay evidence ("the author of the Female Brain says 50% of lesbians like sleeping with men...if I remember correctly"). It's like you came up with the conclusion first and then seized on every little sliver of evidence you could find to validate it. So maybe it's true that you have reached a point in your life where you have decided that you "need a man". There is no shame in that. People change, and maybe the person you are now isn't the person you were before. It seems you aren't entirely comfortable with this change though, and that you find it somehow reassuring to project your needs on the rest of us. The question you should be asking yourself is why you feel threatened by the idea that there are lesbians who are actually lesbians. Do we threaten your sense of self worth or something? Why else would you behave in a way that seems so deliberately intended to provoke and offend?  Just a response that might provide some insight...Submitted by
Cassie (17 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 4:00pm.
I think the reason we're all so angry is because you are making severe generalizations based off of some stereotypes that we, as a community, have been trying to shake for so long. Firstly, when it comes to the relationship between lesbians and pornography, I'll admit it's a complicated one. For one, 'lesbian porn,' has never been intended to sexually gratify women as it has men--it is 'straight porn.' Show me any 'sraight porn' that doesn't have a girl-on-girl segment and I will become appropriately bemused. Further, though some lesbians know it exists, 'dyke porn' is becoming increasingly more difficult to come by as 'straight porn' and 'gay porn' continue to fervorously regenerate [ http://www.gooddykeporn.com ]. HOWEVER, sweetvanilla, I could see your point if you're offering your constructive criticism of 'lesbians' that know of 'lesbian-for-lesbian porn' but watch 'gay porn' instead. Secondly, being a pseudo-lesbian is glorified. Katy Perry anyone? Britney Spears? How about Miley Cyrus and her friend Mandy making kissy faces at each other in their videos posted all over youtube? It is almost encouraged (in music, TV, movies, magazines), unfortunately, for post-pubescent females to hook up with each other in an attempt to please their male counterparts and to 'be cool.' This has to result in plenty of girls aged 12 to at least 20 or 21 that second-guess their sexuality due to girl-on-girl experiences they might have had without genuinely wanting to. I feel these types of individuals make up the majority of the 'hasbian' community.
...yea. So anyways, hopefully, someone agrees with me and I didn't just type all that out for nothing. :)! That makes sense...Submitted by
faerychild (89 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 4:27pm.Now that I think about it. Never really looked at it that way. That would explain alot of the 'hasbian' thing. Hmm...pretty smart there! LOL Happiness is not the absence of sorrow...it is the absence of fear...  Do you have the courage...?Submitted by
zephyr (766 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 5:39pm.Do you have the courage for serious self-examination? Despite what you are saying about lesbians, you are doing a lot of projecting. Criticism is fine. We do need to make room for it in every community and within ourselves as individuals. There is however a difference between criticism and mere projection. There are many ways of experiencing sexuality yet you don't seem to allow for that in your comments. You make it seem as though your way of fantasizing and your way of experiencing sex is the only way. That's where all the heat is coming from. Society keeps telling us that we're not supposed to feel or do so many things as women and even men too, so when we come to a space designed for women who are attracted to other women, it's not unreasonable to see how offensive your generalizations feel. I have a little tidbit for you. When I was in my teens and early 20's my best friend was a gay man. Guess what? Even though he identified as gay he also admited to having attractions to women. Yep. A gay man who occasionally fantasized and slept with women. His primary attraction was to men. He preferred men, but he could not help that he was sometimes attracted to women more often aesthetically and sometimes sexually. He even hit on me. Basically I think he was just a very sexually oriented guy, so if he spent much time thinking about you eventually his mind was going to turn to sex.
 BISEXUAL MEANS BISEXUAL NOT HASBIAN OR LESBIANSubmitted by
La Vie Boheme (16 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 5:45pm.I do believe there are several degrees of bisexuality. There is the bisexual that likes to sleep with women but does not fall for them. There is the bisexual that likes to sleep with men but does not fall for them. There is the genuily bisexual who truly believes in the "not attracted to the gender" rule. That might explain some of the hasbianism. Not because you last 10 or more years on a same sex relationship makes you gay, you can still be bi. About the porn, I am a 25 year old lesbian, who LOVES women. I truly believe they all have something beautifiul and something different from each other to offer. Now, I do not love lesbian porn, I'm not wowed by it. I DO get turned on by lesbian scenes on regular movies and a lot more than with any porn. I do watch staight and ocassionaly some gay male porn, but I honestly think it is because of the same reason why straight men like lesbian porn and straight girls like lesbian and gay male porn. IT IS DIFFERENT from whatever we regulary do ...it breaks our sexual pattern. No I do not need to fantasize about men so I can climax nor do I need to or feel the need to sleep with them. I hate to see semen and also hate the noises they make whe they come. I do not find men attractive but like any other person I am not blind nor I get blinded by my homosexuality, there are beautiful men out there, now I do not think they are hot and honestly they have to be super beautiful so I can notice them (still dont find them attractive ...and their "beauty" pales when compared to any woman) Hope that might explain why you are different from some of us and should consider labeling yourself as bisexual
PS. Excuse my English
To sodomy,  I agreed with another poster in your 3rd thread! lolSubmitted by
Pyewacket (1930 posts) on February 11, 2009 - 9:17pm.It is the generalizations that evoke the anger. And it is no surprise you can find sites or blogs or supposed articles to agree with you. You name the conspiracy theory and I bet there is at least one website dedicated to it. I usually ignore sweeping generalization threads like this one...whether it be about bisexuals or lesbians or gay men...because so far on this site...we have had them all...and it usally turns out that the original poster was emotionally burned pretty badly by a situation and it colored the way she saw the world from then on. So I am sorry for your bad experiences. Take care. I'm not going to lie to you!Submitted by
Wondergirrl (477 posts) on February 13, 2009 - 12:35am.I rarely watch lesbian porn..Most lesbian porn out there just plain sucks.For example,I really don't enjoy watching this movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iyplEmo6jI but I wet my panties everytime I watch THIS movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL6isjMjblg (I think 7:30-7:45 is a killer scene!) |
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News, Reviews & Commentary on Lesbian and Bisexual women in Entertainment and the Media
Your Feelings
Yeah, they're YOUR feelings. Not mine. Yet you write as if these generalities apply to all lesbians. They don't.
Projecting what you feel on others doesn't make it true for them.
One more perspective
Troll
Okay, what are the odds that ANOTHER new member is going to post on this thread? And back up the OP.
It smelled fishy yesterday and it smells fishy today.
I proclaim thee TROLL in two guises!
Be gone!
Yeah
I noticed that too.
hmmm....the one person that actually agrees with this insanity is also brand new member? Fishy indeed.
--
http://www.drunkduck.com/Empathy/
Think what you will...
...but the time of member status has to do with the fact that I would normally not be interested in posting. Because of the subject matter, I was inspired to sign up and contribute.
However, I know there will be those of you who do not agree. That is understandable. I do not profess to speak for an entire community whose stories are very diverse. I can only speak to my own experience.
There was a time in my own life when I felt repulsed by men and would cringe at the suggestions made by the author. But, time and life experience has opened up more possibilities for me. This is also true for another friend of mine who has discovered women later in life. She never thought she would ever sleep with a woman and now finds herself in the middle of a triangle with a man and a woman. The difference between her and me is that she actually has feelings for the woman. I do not have feelings for men beyond sexual gratification. In that way I feel Amazonian. The Amazons took males for pleasure and procreation but, they chose not to live with them or include them in their everyday lives.
To those of you that are offended by this, I would remind you that there are plenty of people that are offended by gays, lesbians and bisexuals in general. They do not take the time to consider that each person has their own truth. We all want to be taken seriously and that starts with acceptance of "others."
BTW...I did not intend to respond to anyone's post directly. I am still new to this on-line thing.
Respect...
...does not come automatically, it has to be earned. Only those who are willing to give respect deserve respect in return. There's not even an ounce of respect towards the group sweetvanilla is addressing in what she has put out here. So who's the one who has a problem with taking others seriously? Why should anyone of us be respectful towards her and accept her point of view?
And are you really sure it is a good idea to try to defend her? Do you share her opinion and attitude? Well, I can assure you it will get you a lot of "friends" among the lesbians on this site.
But since you don't have a general interest to comment on the topics discussed on this site, you don't really have to worry about this, right?
---------------------------------------------------------
"Reason obeys itself. Ignorance submits to what is dictated to it." - Thomas Paine
truth
It's you
...
Wow, it had to take ALOT of
Wow, it had to take ALOT of time interviewing all the lesbians in the entire world to find out what kind of porn they enjoyed watching, how'd you do it?
And you can't base orientation on attraction, many straight/gay whatever people can think others are attractive, but does it make them bisexual? I can find a man aestetically pleasing, but in the end of the day, I can NEVER imagine spending the rest of my life with one. Everyone can tell a ugly man/woman from a good looking man/woman, does that make them bi? No! Therefore i think the whole orientation thing is who you rather spend the rest of your life with.
Now will you please stop pressing your views over everyone elses? Its enough getting it from the homophobes, we don't need it from our community! If you want a discussion, don't just jump up and tell everyone "this is it, this is the truth!", because when you will be proved wrong, the fall will only hurt more.
P.S: I don't like male genitals, i find them disgusting.
P.P.S: You maybe didn't write your post to offend, but you are!
---------
Stay warm this winter. Date a swede.
When discussing human
When discussing human behaviour not even the experts dare proclaim EVER that they have proof or truth. All they can point to is significant trends - if the sample group is large enough. Illyssa pointed out the collossal gaping hole in your arguement... that this study could not possibly take into account ALL lesbians and therefore your premise is inherently flawed.
When so many lesbians are closeted how could you even begin to predict and make generalizations about their predispositions? That is completely illogical. Human beings are the most complex creatures on the planet. NOONE understands truly what makes us tick, biologically, intellectually, spiritually or emotionally. So how would they now know what a largely hidden minority prefers sexually?
Anyone who has ever prepared a paper knows that you can find "evidence" in the form of a report or study to support almost any position. I could just as easily find studies and surveys which show there was no moon landing, there was no hollocaust, gayness is a mass hallucination, Elvis is alive and living in Reno... "I saw him at Chucky Cheese, Betsy!"
To presume to speak the truth for anyone else is the height of arrogance. You seem to be implying that you have evolved beyond our thinking onto a higher plane of wisdom. I think perhaps the air is getting a little too thin up there and you should consider coming back down to earth for a quick reality check.
Humans are miracles. We spend our entire life's journey seeking to understand the nature of our own self... and we live it and study it everyday. The magnitude of your conceitedness in prescibing a universal truth for us, is matched only by your nerve in coming to this site and posting such obviously inflamatory topics.
So thanks for your input. Now if I throw a stick will you leave?
"I tell you what I'd like to do next - I'd like to f*cking murder somebody... You maybe." - Bette
Interesting?
Not, really. I think the following was the most accurate statement in your whole post.
"It's not because a woman is a lesbian that she has to accept what other lesbians do."
Well, no kidding. Hopefully you have your own free will and freedom of thought.
What is the big deal? What are you trying to achieve? What is your real point in posting this? Finally, do you really know the underlying reasons all those celebrities you mentioned made all the partner choices they made? Of course not...only they know that.
I think this subject is getting beaten like a dead horse. It's starting to get boring. I am not threatened by you or your theories. I agree with Penny, your generalities and your opinions are just that...yours. You're free to think those things, but don't project them on others.
You came across as a little defensive, justifying yourself even while you were positng this. Lesbians are not the fanatical, defensive, gang mentality group it appears might be hinted at here.
The shock value is gone, as a lesbian I am no longer interested in why people sleep with who they do or what they fantasize about...who cares...what is the big deal? As long as you are mature, make your choices and are comfortable with them...who cares what others think of your choices or what label to put on you?
I've been with bisexual women, loved them very much, I've never been with a man, I have no problem with gaymen or anyone else. As humans we are very particular in our tastes, but, I'm not into judging people based on their sexuality.
Your post doesn't anger me or make me feel insecure...I just wonder what you're really trying to gain by posting it. I am in the field of medicine, I am an avid reader of psychological theories and they are interesting. But, a majority of them are just that...theories based on studies...not proven facts without any room for error.
Very well said. I couldn't
Is that your truth? Maybe.
Is that your truth? Maybe. But notice it's YOUR truth. No one elses.
And your truth is your perception. Perception is how you view things. It's not necessarily reality.
Don't speak for others. Speak for yourself. That is why you got a reaction. You pretend to speak for a group as a whole and it's offensive.
I am a lesbian. What you say doesn't represent me at all. What you say, to me, is a bunch of crap that I don't relate to at all. Again, speak for yourself. You certainly don't speak for me.
--
http://www.drunkduck.com/Empathy/
again still not true
I do not like gay porn! I REALLY DON'T! what do you mean we all deny it because we know it's true! don't lump me in there just because i happen to be lesbian! I'm sure some lesbians have been attracted to a man sometime, it's known as a man-crush and is not really serious. What your doing is trying to paste your sticky generalisation on all of us! just because someone commented on AfterElton or some book you found somewhere, there's a lot of info out there claiming the holocaust never happened. What, lesbians fight against society, we stand up for ourselves, explain to our families that we love women not men because... we're ashamed of being attracted to men? Sorry makes no sense what so ever. I get that some lesbians may watch gay porn because the acting is more realistic, but if they are seriously attracted to the guys then they're bi or straight. It's fine that it's YOUR feelings, but don't tell me that I'm attracted to men and like gay porn and that it's some grant Holy Grael secret that ALL lesbians don't want to get out. Do you get that you're trying to convince an entire lesbian/bi community that they like and fantasize about gay porn and men? If attraction to men is the norm, why are we gay?! So you're older then me, doesn't make me inferior to you in my reasoning skills, clearly... I bet there's women older then me who would dissagree with you as well, I know Sarah Warn does (we love you Sarah)
"Blackmail always works better then bribery."
Its true
that this topic brings out a lot of heat. But I wouldnt say it's because of its true what you're saying. As well as many others here I think sexuality is far more complex and "your conclusions" shouldnt be applied to ALL the lesbians. I am not willing to believe you even meant this to be generalized? I hope not.
I think it would be a lot easier if we would just accept the fact that SOMETIMES you cant help who you love. BUT it definitely sucks if you need to deny your "orientation" for anybody for any reason. We shouldnt judge anybody because we know how it feels to be judged. So if an out lesbian likes men, she shouldnt hide this just because she doesnt fit in with the "other lesbians". But I guess you get what i mean.
My point: we shouldnt generalize anything
______________________________________________________
Believe only half of what you see and nothing of what you hear
Troll Alert Part II
WOW!!!!!!!!! 90 replies in less than 12 hours LOL. Damn!!
Instead of responding to so many of the intelligent replies to your first trollish thread, all you can do is count how many replies you've gotten in a period of 12 hours. This is a definite sign of a Troll.
I'm certain the response probably gets you off more than anything that was actually written. Trolls love to stir up the pot and what better way than to belittle gay women and tell them 'how they really feel' about sex.
Don't like that I'm calling you a troll? Well, lesbians and bisexual women don't like an amateur Dr. Freud to analyze the entire GLBT community with such blatant ignorance.
I'm not going to respond or justify my sexuality to you because whatever you 'think' is none of my business. I know I love women and don't need some troll like you to tell me otherwise.
Ladies, ignore ignore ignore. Trolls disappear as soon as they see they can't get a reaction out of people.
Au Revoir, Trollnella.
dude
you truly have alot of time on your hands, to find this shit up and to write them down,
but still this is a few lesbians .. you cant say that all lesbians are this way just because some may like men, or gay porn, im not like this and i dont like anything that has to do with mens body, ..
this is what i think, you are probebly a woman that doesnt know what she's into ,, you are maybe a Bi woman that has trouble with finding herself, so you go on and write this up just to see what others think of this so you can feel good about yourself, see its okey to feel this way, its okey that you like both genders but dont come here and tell us what we like and dont, ... i bet you're still in the closet ,and you're trying to find yourself, ,, but there are some books you can read and maybe you can get some help,,, putting this up wont help you, and yes you offended alot of womens here, so please stop this before it gets ugly, ..
I Pity YOU
If youre so arrogant to believe you know what EVERY LESBIAN IN THE WORLD feels i feel sorry cause you have a warped perception on the world.
Yes some lesbians are probably attracted to some men, but sexuality is more than physical attraction, and some straight people are attracted to the same sex, and gay men to women, it doesnt change how they PERSONALLY identify.
You really have not got a grip on reality, please dont speak on the behalf of bisexuals, cause in my experience bisexuals respect my right to identify as a lesbian and arent half as stupid as you.
Passing judgement, and speaking for others online is a sign of a weak personality and insecurities about who you are, dont mock us if you can t make sene of your sexuality thats your issue.
WOW....
"WOW!!!!!!!!! 90 replies in less than 12 hours LOL. Damn!! "
I think it is fair to say you the content that elicited your 90 replies loses its meaning with your above comment.
Why do we have to redefine?
There are lesbians, there are gay men, there are bi-sexual men and women. Why do you feel the need to redefine how people class themselves?
I think the more interesting question is how many "straight" people deny that they are actually bi - or gay, or lesbian.
Sexuality is a spectrum that you can move along. It's not static and your place on the spectrum may change overtime.
ehhh I don't fee like souding over the age of 12 with this reply
If lesbians were bisexuals they wouldn't be called lesbians.... duhhh
Oh, and if we're using your screwy logic then 10 percent of " straight men " are actually bi.
http://www.webmd.com/sex/news/20060918/many-straight-men-have-gay-sex?sr...
Well now
If lesbians were bisexuals they wouldn't be called lesbians.... duhhh
Bisexual women frequently get called lesbians.
And using phrases like "the gay and lesbian community", "gay and lesbian rights", "gay and lesbian politics" & "lesbian and gay switchboard" etc, etc, does tend rather to encourage the notion that lesbians are not quite the same thing as gay...
And it's far from conclusively proved that Sappho of Lesbos was homosexual. It seems more likely she was bisexual. And I can't see that it will ever really be conclusively proved either way - too long ago.
This is may be in at least part why some homosexual women are totally rejecting the lesbian label and call themselves gayelle....or just gay women.
Actually I have no doubt whatsoever that most bisexual men identify as straight under most circumstances.
And that many bisexual men identify as gay. Elton John for example - said he loved his wife and had enjoyed the sex he had with her in the documentary about his life and career, Me, Myself & I.
Well now
"Bisexual women frequently get called lesbians."
Would you agree that most of these women should have the intellectual faculties to know the difference between bi and lesbian? Then why don't they correct this mistake?
"And using phrases like "the gay and lesbian community", "gay and lesbian rights", "gay and lesbian politics" & "lesbian and gay switchboard" etc, etc, does tend rather to encourage the notion that lesbians are not quite the same thing as gay..."
Because the term "gay" originally only refered to homosexual men. Just a thought.
"And it's far from conclusively proved that Sappho of Lesbos was homosexual. It seems more likely she was bisexual. And I can't see that it will ever really be conclusively proved either way - too long ago."
And since every living lesbian on this planet is a direct genetic descendant of Sappho, her sexuality of course defines all of us.
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"Reason obeys itself. Ignorance submits to what is dictated to it." - Thomas Paine
Well then, well now. Words :)
"Bisexual women frequently get called lesbians."
Would you agree that most of these women should have the intellectual faculties to know the difference between bi and lesbian? Then why don't they correct this mistake?
Bisexual woman who get involved with other women sexually and romantically (or just sexually) and don't keep it secret from the world are going to find themselves being referred to as lesbians. That's the way it is. We can say: "actually I'm bisexual" or "I'm just open" or "I don't like to be labeled I'm just a woman in love with a woman" etc.etc. A lot of people will still call us lesbians. That's the way it is. If you're a bisexual woman being called a lesbian isn't something you can allow yourself to get too uptight about. There's nothing wrong with being a lesbian anyway.
And there's nothing wrong with being bisexual either.
Because the term "gay" originally only refered to homosexual men. Just a thought.
It never really did though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay
These days a woman can call herself lesbian or gay or both. Everyone knows what it means. A man can't call himself lesbian and really expect to be taken seriously - not even if he's from Lesbos. Just a fact.
And since every living lesbian on this planet is a direct genetic descendant of Sappho, her sexuality of course defines all of us.
However Sappho of Lesbos is the reason lesbians are called lesbians. And she is the only reason lesbians are called lesbians.
It is evident that Sappho was a woman who loved women, it is a matter of dispute whether she was homosexual or bisexual. So I'm not sure that using the term lesbian to describe bisexual women really makes any less sense than using it to describe homosexual women.
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"Reason obeys itself. Ignorance submits to what is dictated to it." - Thomas Paine
Oh good Kerensky.
If a woman identifies as bisexual, but others insist on calling her lesbian, then this is outside her responsibility. And I don't care how many straight people are confused about these things, because I simply don't expect them to be well informed. But I expect the members of the LGBT community to know the difference. If a bisexual woman, who knows she is bi, identifies as lesbian, or allows others to label her this way without correcting them on it, deliberately giving the impression that she is lesbian, then she is responsible. If it is later on discovered that she is bi, she should not complain about negative responses. She doesn't get them because she's bi, but because she was dishonest with the people around her. But if she's honest about her sexuality from the beginning, and this also includes her not being sure about her own sexuality, she will be welcomed into the fold. Don't know how it works where you live, but this is the way it works where I live. Where did I ever imply there's anything wrong with being lesbian or with being bisexual? But there's definitely a problem with dishonesty. Most people don't like surprises.
I know the word "gay" had another meaning before it was associated with homosexuality. Thanks. But within the context of homosexuality, "gay" originally only refered to homosexual men. Why should it even have been necessary in the first place to invent words like "lesbian" and "lesbianism", if the word "gay" would have described male and female homosexuality right from the start?
Did you actually read the article you linked? Let me help you out a bit.
Paragraph 1.2 Sexualization:
"A passage from Gertrude Stein's Miss Furr & Miss Skeene (1922) is possibly the first traceable published use of the word to refer to a homosexual relationship, though it is not altogether clear whether she uses the word in reference to lesbianism or happiness:..."
"The 1929 musical Bitter Sweet by Noel Coward contains another use of the word in a context that strongly implies homosexuality. In the song "Green Carnation," four overdressed, 1890s dandies sing:
"Pretty boys, witty boys,
You may sneer
At our disintegration.
Haughty boys, naughty boys,
Dear, dear, dear!
Swooning with affectation...
And as we are the reason
For the "Nineties" being gay,
We all wear a green carnation."
The song title alludes to Oscar Wilde [who was still a man last time I checked], who famously wore a green carnation, and whose homosexuality was well known."
Paragraph 1.3 Shift to "homosexual":
"Other connotations of frivolousness and showiness in dress ("gay attire") led to association with camp and effeminacy."
"Consequently, a number of ironic euphemisms were used to hint at suspected homosexuality. Examples include "Such a nice man," "Such a gay man," "Such beautiful handwriting," all with the stress deliberately on the otherwise completely innocent adjective."
Paragraph 2.2 Gay Community:
"In other cases, the speaker may be referring only to homosexual men."
Why? Because they are sticking to the original meaning of the word.
Paragraph 2.5 Use as noun:
"The label "gay" was originally used purely as an adjective ("he is a gay man" or "he is gay"). The term has been in use as a noun with the meaning "homosexual man" since the 1970s, as in "gays are opposed to that policy."."
"It is sometimes used as a singular noun, as in "he is a gay," such as in its use to comic effect by the Little Britain character Dafydd Thomas."
And directly at the beginning of the article, the gay flag:
No comment.
Today many people use the term "gay" the same way they are using "queer", as an all encompassing term. But this doesn't change the way the meaning of the term developed within the context of homosexuality. You are right, gay and lesbian are not the same. One refers to homosexual men, the other to homosexual women. And if a woman calls herself gay, then it is not really clear what she means by it. For some women this is exactly the reason why they refer to themselves as gay: Because it's ambiguous.
The term "lesbian" was derived from the name of the island, Lesbos, where Sappho lived. Maybe we should try to find out which sexual orientation the island has? It is also possible, albeit improbable, that Sappho was straight, and looked upon women as a spiritual/emotional inspiration or catalyst for her artistic desires. In the end, Sappho's sexuality is irrelevant. The definition of "lesbian" is largely agreed upon, except of course by those who constantly try to redefine the term, probably out of a personal agenda. I will leave it to you to skim the various online-dictionaries for the definition of lesbian. You might notice there's always the word "homosexual" turning up, not "bisexual". If the definition of "lesbian" would have included bisexual women right from the beginning, then why was it necessary to coin new terms like "bisexual" and "pansexual" to describe woman whose sexual attraction is not exclusively focused on women?
I think it would be much more effective to spend more time and energy to try to solve the structural problems within the bi-community, instead of constantly trying to tell others what they "really" are. Let's leave it to the gays and lesbians to define what gay and lesbian mean, and to bisexual people to define what bisexual means, will we? And how about starting with it today?
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"I don't appreciate it if people try to mock me by stealing my signature line." - Tia
Life is full of surprises
If gay = homosexual (as in exclusively attracted to the same sex) then calling Oscar Wilde gay is dishonest and ignorant - or maybe just plain ignorant.
Here are some things for you to consider Tia. It is perfectly possible for a woman to be lesbian without being a lesbian - there is a difference between being lesbian and being a lesbian. If two bisexual women are in a monogamous loving relationship with each other is it really unreasonable to call them a lesbian couple? Or indeed a gay couple?
Contradiction.
There seem to be some substantial differences between the communities we're part of. I don't know any lesbian, in fact I don't know anyone in the circles I travel, who would call a woman who identifies as bisexual anything else than bisexual. Because it would just not make any sense.
Fold: home, family. I consider the community I'm part of my extended family. Maybe I'm just living on a more welcoming planet than you do. And no, I'm not interested in switching places. Thanks.
Sexual fascism? Wow! Now I'm starting to wonder which circles you are travelling. Looks as if you had some heavy shit thrown your way in the past. The unpleasant part is not people being bisexual, but people being dishonest. I've seen bi-women and lesbians getting engaged in heated debates with each other, but not often. People will interfere and seperate them, so they have time to cool down. And while they're cooling down, they will be educated about the rules. And one of those rules is that flamers and firestarters are not welcome. But you know what is interesting? After they have cooled their egos, they often enough end up in bed together. Seems some things are still more important.
I understand why you are disappointed if people come out as bi and then change to another label, because it perpetuates the prejudice that bisexuality is only a transitional phase. Looking at your user-name I think we can agree it is just that: A prejudice. When I talk about structural problems in the bi-community, I'm primarily talking about visibility. To quote from one of your posts: "Why not a bi male? Oh wait. They don't really exist do they? ;)" Well, no doubt they do exist, but their visibility is pretty crappy, isn't it? Why? As long as bi-folks will continue to call themselves straight/gay/lesbian nothing will change with this.
Well, assuring me is nice. Proving your point would be even nicer, though. You will be hard pressed to come up with examples for people commonly using the words "gay" and "lesbian" to refer to homosexual behaviour before the dawn of the 20th century. Terms in use for this purpose before, and only in closed circles, were "tribade", "tribadie", "sapphist", "sapphic love" or simply "friend". Your problem is that the dictionary is on my side. And there's a reason "gay" and "lesbian" are defined there the way they are, refering to homosexuality. You can of course choose to ignore the dictionary definition, this is up to you. People can have their own definition of these words, and they can identify as they choose. But they should keep in mind that if they choose a label the official definition of which does not fit their sexuality, they are labeling themselves in a way which does not conform with reality. You can of course call a screwdriver a saw, if you want to, but it will still be a screwdriver. And you will have a hard time cutting a tree with it. Well, at least it'll take quite a while.
You know, there's a reason I didn't put the part of the quote which refered to Wilde as a homosexual man in bold type. My point was that he was a man. And that he engaged in homosexual acts with other men, which led his contemporaries to call him gay. I honestly don't care if he was homosexual or bisexual, because I'm not interested in him or his work. But if you're annoyed that the author of the wiki article you linked speaks of Wilde as a homosexual man, then I suggest you discuss this with said author.
I know that bisexual and pansexual are not gender specific. Thanks again. Stop trying to educate me on basics, 2B. I'm not a little girl, and you're not my mother (or father). I'm a lesbian, and this means I'm instinctively inclined to talk about women. But if my omitting men in this moment offended you, then I hereby apologize for being politically incorrect. Seems I just can't help it.
A woman can be lesbian without being a lesbian? This might make sense for you, to me it's simply an oxymoron. If a woman is sexually attracted to other women it does not automatically make her a lesbian. Not as long as she is also sexually attracted to men. If a woman has sex with other women it does not automatically make her a lesbian. Not as long as she is still capable to have sex with men and enjoy it. If a woman falls in love with another woman, and enters into a relationship with her, it does not automatically make her a lesbian. Not as long as she still has the potential, should the relationship she's in now with her female partner end, to maybe fall in love with a man, should the right guy cross her path. If two bisexual women are in a relationship with each other, they do not become lesbians. If they would, it would mean that bisexuality is in fact nothing more than a transitional phase. But they remain bisexual, even if they should spend the rest of their lives together happily.
You are contradicting yourself, 2B. On the one hand you're complaining about people adopting the bisexual label and then dropping it again. On the other hand you try to tell us that in the end there's no difference between bi, gay and lesbian, so it doesn't matter how people lable themselves. So what is it now? What do you want? Do you want more bisexual men and women to be out and proud as bisexual, increasing the visibility of bisexual people, the only way to fight the prejudices floating around about them? Or do you want to tell them that it doesn't matter, that they should just label themselves the way they feel when they get out of bed in the morning, or maybe roll a dice, or draw a card? You cannot have it both. Make your pick.
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"Reason obeys itself. Ignorance submits to what is dictated to it." - Thomas Paine
Contradiction?
Being proud to be Bi is about not denying or hiding your same and opposite sex desires and attractions. It's about being proud to be identified as Bi - or at least not objecting to being described as bisexual. It's not about insisting that every person who experiences a significant amount of both same and opposite sex desires and attractions has to avoid using words like lesbian, gay, straight, homosexual and heterosexual to describe themselves in every conceivable circumstance and context. Bisexual people can, and often do, consider themselves partly homosexual and partly heterosexual and our sexual desires can very be fluid - sometimes significantly biased towards our own gender and/or sex or the opposite gender and/or sex.
I'm not telling you there's no difference between bi, gay and lesbian. However the distinction between bi and gay/lesbian and genders is not clear cut for many people.
As the research of Alfred Kinsey, Fritz Klein, Kinsey Institute and others indicates, human sexuality is a continuum. Using the Kinsey Scale anyone who is a 1,2,3,4 or 5 could arguably be described as bisexual. And someone who is a 0 or a 6 could move to one or more of the numbers on the scale over time and become demonstrably bisexual to some degree. And someone who is a 0 or a 6 for life might also possibly identify as bisexual just as a matter of principle.
For example. If a woman describes herself as lesbian, and in more detail as a "a lesbian identified bisexual" you might well see that as a contradiction in terms that demands to be clarified and reassessed and re-identified. But identifying that way could be an indication that she's spent a long time trying to analyze her sexuality, emotions and sexual behaviour and is trying to describe herself as best as she can. She is probably at least a 4 on Kinsey's scale, more likely a 5. It could mean she acknowledges that she can and does sometimes enjoy sex with men but that she just doesn't see men as suitable relationship material for her and so when it comes to love and romance she is totally into other women. Is it really reasonable to insist that she doesn't identify as lesbian (or mostly lesbian) if she genuinely never has been, and feels she never will be, in love with a man? She might feel it is not right to identify as simply bisexual if she has no intention of ever having a serious relationship with a man under any circumstances.
Okay let me try to explain the difference between "being lesbian" and being "a lesbian" as I see it.
As an adjective "lesbian" describes female same-sex desire. As a noun "a lesbian" is (strictly speaking) a homosexual woman.
A sexual relationship between two women is a homosexual relationship because it is a sexual relationship between two people of the same sex. And as it is a homosexual relationship between two women it is therefore a lesbian relationship. If one of the women in the relationship is not a lesbian it is still a lesbian relationship. If both the women are bisexual it is still a lesbian relationship. If one of the women is lesbian or bisexual and the other woman considers herself straight but is still sexually attracted to her les/bi partner - it is still a lesbian relationship. Generally speaking people have sexual relationships that can logically be described as either homosexual or heterosexual relationships. Generally speaking bisexual people have homosexual and heterosexual relationships. Both. Not one or the other or neither. Both.
What is a bisexual relationship? Is that something you'd care to define Tia?
So anyway, as I see it, two women in a same-sex monogamous relationship are "being lesbian" even if they are both bisexual. They should be allowed to openly identify as bisexual and describe their relationship as a lesbian relationship without other people giving them grief about it.
"Contrary to those who rely entirely on the OED, Emma Donoghue has established beyond doubt that throughout the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries the word 'lesbian' was used in the very same sense as today, and that lesbians were viewed as a distinct sexual and social group. To cite an example from a literary work that was excluded from the OED survey (either because it was libellous, or because it was published in Dublin), sexual relationships between women are described as 'Lesbian Loves' by William King in The Toast in 1732, where he explains 'she loved Women in the same Manner as Men love them; she was a Tribad'; in the 1736 edition of King's book such women are called 'Tribades or Lesbians'. Thus it is clear, as Donoghue points out, that '"Lesbian" could be used both as an adjective and a noun to describe women who desired and pleasured each other more than a century and a half before the OED's first entry for that meaning."
Source http://rictornorton.co.uk/social22.htm
My father who, believe it or not, was born over a hundred years ago would have clearly understood throughout his adult life what was being implied if a woman was described as a lesbian. I'm pretty certain he would not have understood what " a gay man" meant in the modern sense until he was well into his sixties (in the 1960's ). Gay meant happy, colourful and carefree to him. He was not bi himself, however he counted several bisexual and homosexual people among his close friends and quite often socialized in clubs and bars frequented by queer people. And I well remember him remarking at length on the "new meaning" of the word gay.
Did Wilde's contemporaries call him gay? Noël Coward was hardly a contemporary of Wilde's. He was born in 1899 - just 11 months before Wilde's death.
The word gay undoubtedly had homosexual connotations for Coward. However the phrase "gay nineties" had no homosexual connotations for the general public at large. Also it refers to the 1890's in America rather then the UK and was a phrase in more general use in the USA.
Wilde was specifically persecuted and imprisoned with hard labour for engaging in homosexual acts - not for engaging in heterosexual ones as well. It's not really that annoying to me for people to speak about Wilde's homosexuality as long as they do not specifically deny his bisexuality or the fact that he clearly loved his wife Constance.
Also as Wilde was a famous and highly successful artist whose life was utterly destroyed by a homophobic system I honestly feel that anyone who takes an interest in LGBT rights should take at least some interest in him.
An example of sexual fascism (to me) would be insisting the lesbian identified writer Patricia Cornwall should say she never loved her ex-husband and that marrying him was all a horrible mistake, instead of saying what she does actually say - that she honestly fell in love with him. I would prefer it if she identified as bisexual, but if it is the case, as it appears to be, that she is generally attracted to women and her ex-husband is the only man she has ever been attracted to, should I insist on it? Would you Tia?
Another example would be insisting that a lesbian must be bisexual if she gets turned on and masturbates when she watches a gay man porn video.
Running out of space.
Reply at end of thread.