So it seems from this episode like Jenny no longer considers herself bisexual? She described herself to Max as a lesbian. So the only ones of the gang to be bi are Alice and Tina, is that right?
it seems that everyone is saying that Tina is now "straight", including the characters on the show. I know that they are showing that this does happen and bisexual women (or however else they label themselves) who are sleeping with men are ostracized from the lesbian community, but it really bothers me, being bisexual myself, that people who were your friends suddenly hate you for who you love... sounds a bit familiar no? Of course Tina's general bitchiness hasn't helped her the past season, still that's no reason to use the fact that she's with a man right now (albeit a bit of a dud that should be dropped) against her either.
yeah, ronijn, i agree with you, that does sound familiar...i've asked my gay friends many times how their not accepting bisexuals is any different than straight people not accepting them...no acceptable answers forthcoming, however...
and i agree, tina is waaaay too much of a whiney bitch and i'm sick to death of her...why does having a relationship with a man have to turn her into such a loser? and why does the man in question have to be such a dork? so much for representing bi's on the l word
I'm a lesbian and I accept bisexuality as I accept heterosexuality. I have friends in both groups. However I will not have a sexual relationships with anyone from either group. There is such a thing in the USA as freedom of association. Some people seem to forget that.
on the one hand, i totally understand how isolating it is to suddenly be ostracized by your friends because of who you're with. whether you're straight, gay or bi, friends are supposed to be there to help you through it all.
i think that it's not about who you're sleeping with, it's about how much power and privelege in society one has. Even if you identify as a bisexual, if you are in an opposite-sex relationship, you automatically get all these invisible priveleges (public PDA, for example) even though you may identify as bisexual.
i think for the gals on the L word, it's about tina suddenly suddenly accepting these priveleges without question.
also i think tina should have a more interesting boyfriend. if only he weren't so bland... i might like their relationship more...
I don't mind the characters on the show being hypocrites towards Tina's bisexuality (which I always thought was an obvious point, given that she only dated men prior to dating Bette, but I digress) because, like Ronijn said, it makes a particular statement and it represents fictional character flaws. But when real people, the media, even a recent AE article (!), vehemently describe her as having "gone straight", I can't stand it. It's especially disappointing when it comes from queer journalists who, pardon the cliche, really ought to know better.
Hmm, a woman who has recently dated both men and women? What do we call that?
Well it was about time they showed bisexuality on The L word cause so far, we haven't seen much. The only man Alice dated was back in season 1 and he identified as a lesbian man so ...
Sure r.oribello, perceived hetero privilege is something that queer people resent because they of course run into being ostracized in "straight" society... though I wonder if the reverse is not also true in queer areas where "breeders" are put down as well. It's wrong on both sides...
This is reminding me of my beef of Andrienne Rich's "lesbian continuum" where all women are "lesbians" from one end being friends with women to the other full-blown sexual relationships with them. My problem with this whole scenario is, well, where are the men in this picture? Do they just not exist on it and are therefore not "worthy" to be included? Why are hetero women's relationships left out? Like I "get" it but I dont' think it helps anything, other than being sexist in a different way.
But what is with Tina being with all these duds? I always thought after she and Bette had their breakup, it would be good if she was with someone who was more equal to her, because Bette was so Alpha in charge... and then she gets Helena who is a bitchier Alpha and now Henry, who tries to be assertive but it comes off as if he's afraid that Tina will leave him for a woman, thus crushing his manhood and status he gains by "turning" Tina "straight" again. Other than that, he has the personality of a piece of Melba toast. And what annoys me most of all is that I think Laurel Holloman is so cute! Why must you make me dislike her so Ilene Chaiken! Gagh!
I m totaly agree with Bette when she told Tina that their friends dosem't hate her because of her sexual orientation , but her bitchness ... ups that was not what she said but almost ... I mean Tina has been part of the grup for enough time to loose their friends for that, And now that Tina became KaTina (I love you scriba grrrl) there's no wonder she would be prety much out of the grup ... or the show itself
Honestly, I don't view Tina as a bisexual. I feel Tina is straight. To me a bisexual woman is a woman who can and/or is willing to love both a man or a woman but at different times during their life. Personally, I think Tina tried Bette and then tried Helena and decided that she want a man. That's not a bisexual. That's a str8 women. I feel like the writers portrayed her as 'not into women anymore'. Maybe it's just me. Maybe had Tina fallen in love with Henry ... maybe I could see bisexual. But to me it's was all about missing/and having 'D**K'. I also believe having sex with a woman does not make you a lesbian ... no more than women in denial out here sleeping with men when they are not into them in that way makes them str8. Then again ... Labels are just labels and sometimes that just don't fit either way. Although I must say I am glad to wear the label of lesbian .. because I have no attraction/longing to want to be with a man. I have only the desire to love, have sex with and build relationships with women so I guess I can't really say what is bi or what is str8.
Took the words right out of my mouth. Thank you. *Applauds*
I don't see why almost everybody rushes to discount Tina's bisexuality and proclaim her straight or gay. She's dated plenty of men (mostly before Bette) and had the aforementioned nearly decade long relationship with a woman. Just because we saw most of the negative aspects of Bette and Tina's relationship doesn't mean it was a fly-by-night thing; just pop in early episodes of S1 for a recap of how the majority of their relationship probably went.
For the majority of bisexuals, dating and having feelings for both genders is a pretty clear-cut definition. Those attractions can go in cycles (as we've seen with the trumped up, "I just want a d*ck in me" feelings of late) but they still exist, either independently or in tandem.
It seems like typical, "You date a woman, you're gay; you date a man, you're straight" invisibility to me. (So I guess I'm a lesbian today?)
I do have to say that I am probably deemed as the "enemy" in the lesbian community ( although I hope not ). I am a married woman with 3 children who considers herself very bisexual. I can remember being a very young girl and thinking about girls and boys VERY equally. However unfortunately, I have never had any females in my life growing up that were the same ( or at least admitted to it ), so the feelings that I had were left to men. I am as EQUALLY attracted to women as I am to men and I have never even kissed a woman. It is the way I was born, I am not "curious" and I wish that people would understand me. I have never even been with a woman yet I KNOW that I am bisexual, not bi- curious. Sometimes life just doesn't hand you the experiences or the people you wish it would have, but it doesn't make the attractions or feelings any less..
True bisexuals understand that you fall in love with whomever you fall in love with....you don't see male/female. Wouldn't it be easier if we just chose one sex over the other or were more drawn to one over the other? Sure. But it sure as heck wouldn't be as much fun. Helloooooooo, we have twice the population to flirt with! Here's to those who aren't afraid to stay open and here's to those who know who they are regardless of their experiences. Cheers.
Tina has been a f**ked-up woman since ever ... remember when she and Bette tried to adopt Angelica and Tina identify herself as a Lesbian, She also said that before meeting Bette she only dated men. And now sh's clear she's straight, at least that was what she told Helena on season 3.
This season I m not sure what's going on ... I don't think she could be in love of Henry, but even bisexual people know that when they have a relationship with man or woman and have a comitment, a marrige or whatever, they don't suddenly change of mind and say ... "ups !!! sorry now I have felings about men!!!" Who ... what man???? no jus men in general. That is not a result of bisexuality!!! That is what I call straightness. If Tina had had an affair with a man she is atracted to, the story would have been diferent.
i would describe myself as bi-curious, with no intention of investigating this - partly because I don't see why I should mess up some poor woman, to satisfy my curiosity...
i think this is where blew is coming from too, in her comment...
Alice: Where have you been? Oh, right: stuck in the far reaches of hetero-ville, that's right. Tina: It's so scary. Alice:Ooooh, scary. Tina: I think I remember you lurking around there a couple of years ago. Alice: But I did come to my senses. See, that's the difference between you and me.
So are they now saying that Alice is no longer bisexual either? If neither she or Jenny are, and if people seem to think Tina isn't either (though I'm not sure I agree with this) - does that mean there are no longer any self-identifying bi women on The L Word?
indeed... if alice was being serious (and I think she was - when was the last time she flirted with a man, or even looked at one? season 1?) there are indeed no self-identifying bisexuals left, and that's a pity.
I had the exact same question as what_katy_did. I thought Alice's character was supposed to be a positive portrayal of a bi woman - and now she's dissing women who date both men and women?
Really, I wish the show would just not portray bi women, instead of portraying them as it does. (Not that it does much better with portrayals of butch women, transfolk or latina women, though...)
The definition of bisexuality is a person who is attracted to both sexes. Just because Tina is with a man right now doesn't mean she is not or will never be attracted to another woman. She might just want to be fully commited to a person, whether that's a man or a woman.
I hate that bisexuals portrayed as straight who sometimes have a gay fling in mainstream shows/movies while being portrayed as 99.9% gay in this lesbian-centric show. Alice drops some comments like: "Oh, he's cute" and that's about it and then go straight for the p***y.
I get the whole "I identify as a lesbian for political purposes" thing. But I gotta say that as much as I hate Jenny for being all "you're not a lesbian anymore Tina" thing (way for supporting your friends there Jenny), I kind of agree with her that if you're sleeping with a man, then you're kind of thrown the definition of lesbian out of the window. But it just shows how hated the bisexual label is if Tina, who could actually label herself as bisexual, chooses not to (or rather the writers are choosing not to) label herself as such. Or what's wrong with "queer" as a label? Maybe that would be more acceptable to her hating now seemingly ex-friends :s
This whole issue of bisexuality runs along the same lines as looking at something like transgendered individuals. When you're talking about gender, most of modern society still sees it as a strict dichotomy between male and female. The same thing translates into sexuality. Now that homosexuality is becoming more acceptable (little by little), it's the shades of grey that make people uncomfortable. Now that we have 2 clear definitions of sexuality (heterosexual and homosexual), society wants you to choose one or the other.
I myself have nothing against the bisexual community, but I feel that since there now is this dichotomous split between gay and straight that people do not understand the concept of bisexuality. It's the either/or mentality that causes the misconceptions about bisexuality as a whole -- ie. seeing it as an excuse for promiscuity, etc. And this is the reason why both camps have trouble accepting it as a legitimate orientation.
The same logic is behind why people have trouble understanding transgendered individuals -- people believe that you are born as physically male or female (obviously mistaking sex for gender). The new prevalent view on sexuality in the scientific community suggests the same thing -- you are born as either gay or straight. So even in this new perspective, bisexuals are left in the dark. And as always, people find it simpler to reject the inbetween rather than understand it.
Now that we have 2 clear definitions of sexuality (heterosexual and homosexual), society wants you to choose one or the other.
I myself have nothing against the bisexual community, but I feel that since there now is this dichotomous split between gay and straight that people do not understand the concept of bisexuality. It's the either/or mentality that causes the misconceptions about bisexuality as a whole -- ie. seeing it as an excuse for promiscuity, etc. And this is the reason why both camps have trouble accepting it as a legitimate orientation.
I think that this is really true. I worked with a woman whose daughter had come out as a lesbian, but later started dating a man. And she said to me that she supported her daughter as lesbian, but she really didn't understand what to do now that her daughter seemed open to relationships with both men and women.
Society as a whole needs time to process change. The concept of bisexuality hasn't been around all that long (not even when compared to homosexuality). At least not in such clearly defined terms. I mean, the bisexuals has been there, but not the concept itself. Society was just recently able to digest the homosexuality thing and now there's this whole new variable to absorb and deal with. Give it a few years to catch up.
I think The L Word reflects this struggle. Rather hamhanded and crudely, but still.
It likely will come in time, but right now mainstream society is still getting used to the idea of homosexuality... so it will definately take a while to fill in the blanks.
As far as the L Word is concerned... Is the representation crude? Yes. But, unrealistic? Sadly, no.
Many bisexuals who exist in the lesbian community for an extended period of time and then decide they want to persue a heterosexual relationship do face the sort of discrimination that Tina is facing from the other L Word characters -- similar to the way a woman who has identified as a bisexual but has been in exclusively heterosexual relationships may face discrimination from her peers should she choose to date another woman.
It's a catch 22, and, as I mentioned in my previous post, bisexuals consistently get the short end of the stick.
Well...
it seems that everyone is saying that Tina is now "straight", including the characters on the show. I know that they are showing that this does happen and bisexual women (or however else they label themselves) who are sleeping with men are ostracized from the lesbian community, but it really bothers me, being bisexual myself, that people who were your friends suddenly hate you for who you love... sounds a bit familiar no? Of course Tina's general bitchiness hasn't helped her the past season, still that's no reason to use the fact that she's with a man right now (albeit a bit of a dud that should be dropped) against her either.
bisexuality on the l word
yeah, ronijn, i agree with you, that does sound familiar...i've asked my gay friends many times how their not accepting bisexuals is any different than straight people not accepting them...no acceptable answers forthcoming, however...
and i agree, tina is waaaay too much of a whiney bitch and i'm sick to death of her...why does having a relationship with a man have to turn her into such a loser? and why does the man in question have to be such a dork? so much for representing bi's on the l word
Bisexuality vs Lesbianism
I'm a lesbian and I accept bisexuality as I accept heterosexuality. I have friends in both groups. However I will not have a sexual relationships with anyone from either group. There is such a thing in the USA as freedom of association. Some people seem to forget that.
You wouldn't date someone bisexual?
What if you met a girl you really liked, and then learned that she was bisexual? Would that be the end of it?
Certainly it's your prerogative to do so if you want to, but that seems like rather a hard-line stance.
this topic is totally
this topic is totally awesome...
on the one hand, i totally understand how isolating it is to suddenly be ostracized by your friends because of who you're with. whether you're straight, gay or bi, friends are supposed to be there to help you through it all.
i think that it's not about who you're sleeping with, it's about how much power and privelege in society one has. Even if you identify as a bisexual, if you are in an opposite-sex relationship, you automatically get all these invisible priveleges (public PDA, for example) even though you may identify as bisexual.
i think for the gals on the L word, it's about tina suddenly suddenly accepting these priveleges without question.
also i think tina should have a more interesting boyfriend. if only he weren't so bland... i might like their relationship more...
Tina's bisexuality
I don't mind the characters on the show being hypocrites towards Tina's bisexuality (which I always thought was an obvious point, given that she only dated men prior to dating Bette, but I digress) because, like Ronijn said, it makes a particular statement and it represents fictional character flaws. But when real people, the media, even a recent AE article (!), vehemently describe her as having "gone straight", I can't stand it. It's especially disappointing when it comes from queer journalists who, pardon the cliche, really ought to know better.
Hmm, a woman who has recently dated both men and women? What do we call that?
But alas, bisexual invisibility persists.
Bi word
Well it was about time they showed bisexuality on The L word cause so far, we haven't seen much. The only man Alice dated was back in season 1 and he identified as a lesbian man so ...
More groaning from the bi girl ;)
Sure r.oribello, perceived hetero privilege is something that queer people resent because they of course run into being ostracized in "straight" society... though I wonder if the reverse is not also true in queer areas where "breeders" are put down as well. It's wrong on both sides...
This is reminding me of my beef of Andrienne Rich's "lesbian continuum" where all women are "lesbians" from one end being friends with women to the other full-blown sexual relationships with them. My problem with this whole scenario is, well, where are the men in this picture? Do they just not exist on it and are therefore not "worthy" to be included? Why are hetero women's relationships left out? Like I "get" it but I dont' think it helps anything, other than being sexist in a different way.
But what is with Tina being with all these duds? I always thought after she and Bette had their breakup, it would be good if she was with someone who was more equal to her, because Bette was so Alpha in charge... and then she gets Helena who is a bitchier Alpha and now Henry, who tries to be assertive but it comes off as if he's afraid that Tina will leave him for a woman, thus crushing his manhood and status he gains by "turning" Tina "straight" again. Other than that, he has the personality of a piece of Melba toast. And what annoys me most of all is that I think Laurel Holloman is so cute! Why must you make me dislike her so Ilene Chaiken! Gagh!
I m totaly agree with
I m totaly agree with Bette when she told Tina that their friends dosem't hate her because of her sexual orientation , but her bitchness ... ups that was not what she said but almost ... I mean Tina has been part of the grup for enough time to loose their friends for that, And now that Tina became KaTina (I love you scriba grrrl) there's no wonder she would be prety much out of the grup ... or the show itself
"I am your creation, and I am proud"
Bette Porter
Define bisexuality
Honestly, I don't view Tina as a bisexual. I feel Tina is straight. To me a bisexual woman is a woman who can and/or is willing to love both a man or a woman but at different times during their life. Personally, I think Tina tried Bette and then tried Helena and decided that she want a man. That's not a bisexual. That's a str8 women. I feel like the writers portrayed her as 'not into women anymore'. Maybe it's just me. Maybe had Tina fallen in love with Henry ... maybe I could see bisexual. But to me it's was all about missing/and having 'D**K'. I also believe having sex with a woman does not make you a lesbian ... no more than women in denial out here sleeping with men when they are not into them in that way makes them str8. Then again ... Labels are just labels and sometimes that just don't fit either way. Although I must say I am glad to wear the label of lesbian .. because I have no attraction/longing to want to be with a man. I have only the desire to love, have sex with and build relationships with women so I guess I can't really say what is bi or what is str8.
"Tried Bette"? Weren't they
"Tried Bette"? Weren't they in a relationship for something like eight years and now have a child together? That doesn't seem like an experiment.
Yay!
Took the words right out of my mouth. Thank you. *Applauds*
I don't see why almost everybody rushes to discount Tina's bisexuality and proclaim her straight or gay. She's dated plenty of men (mostly before Bette) and had the aforementioned nearly decade long relationship with a woman. Just because we saw most of the negative aspects of Bette and Tina's relationship doesn't mean it was a fly-by-night thing; just pop in early episodes of S1 for a recap of how the majority of their relationship probably went.
For the majority of bisexuals, dating and having feelings for both genders is a pretty clear-cut definition. Those attractions can go in cycles (as we've seen with the trumped up, "I just want a d*ck in me" feelings of late) but they still exist, either independently or in tandem.
It seems like typical, "You date a woman, you're gay; you date a man, you're straight" invisibility to me. (So I guess I'm a lesbian today?)
Bisexuality
Bisexuality
Tina has been a f**k up
Tina has been a f**ked-up woman since ever ... remember when she and Bette tried to adopt Angelica and Tina identify herself as a Lesbian, She also said that before meeting Bette she only dated men. And now sh's clear she's straight, at least that was what she told Helena on season 3.
This season I m not sure what's going on ... I don't think she could be in love of Henry, but even bisexual people know that when they have a relationship with man or woman and have a comitment, a marrige or whatever, they don't suddenly change of mind and say ... "ups !!! sorry now I have felings about men!!!" Who ... what man???? no jus men in general. That is not a result of bisexuality!!! That is what I call straightness. If Tina had had an affair with a man she is atracted to, the story would have been diferent.
______________________________
"I am your creation, and I am proud"
Bette Porter
bi-women
i would describe myself as bi-curious, with no intention of investigating this - partly because I don't see why I should mess up some poor woman, to satisfy my curiosity...
i think this is where blew is coming from too, in her comment...
Quote:Alice: Where have you
Tina: It's so scary.
Alice: Ooooh, scary.
Tina: I think I remember you lurking around there a couple of years ago.
Alice: But I did come to my senses. See, that's the difference between you and me.
So are they now saying that Alice is no longer bisexual either? If neither she or Jenny are, and if people seem to think Tina isn't either (though I'm not sure I agree with this) - does that mean there are no longer any self-identifying bi women on The L Word?
Or was Alice joking when she said what she said?
indeed... if alice was being
indeed... if alice was being serious (and I think she was - when was the last time she flirted with a man, or even looked at one? season 1?) there are indeed no self-identifying bisexuals left, and that's a pity.
I had the exact same
I had the exact same question as what_katy_did. I thought Alice's character was supposed to be a positive portrayal of a bi woman - and now she's dissing women who date both men and women?
Really, I wish the show would just not portray bi women, instead of portraying them as it does. (Not that it does much better with portrayals of butch women, transfolk or latina women, though...)
The definition of
The definition of bisexuality is a person who is attracted to both sexes. Just because Tina is with a man right now doesn't mean she is not or will never be attracted to another woman. She might just want to be fully commited to a person, whether that's a man or a woman.
I hate that bisexuals portrayed as straight who sometimes have a gay fling in mainstream shows/movies while being portrayed as 99.9% gay in this lesbian-centric show. Alice drops some comments like: "Oh, he's cute" and that's about it and then go straight for the p***y.
Ok Tina....
I get the whole "I identify as a lesbian for political purposes" thing. But I gotta say that as much as I hate Jenny for being all "you're not a lesbian anymore Tina" thing (way for supporting your friends there Jenny), I kind of agree with her that if you're sleeping with a man, then you're kind of thrown the definition of lesbian out of the window. But it just shows how hated the bisexual label is if Tina, who could actually label herself as bisexual, chooses not to (or rather the writers are choosing not to) label herself as such. Or what's wrong with "queer" as a label? Maybe that would be more acceptable to her hating now seemingly ex-friends :s
Sigh... and you wonder why Tina is so bitchy :s
bisexuality in general..
This whole issue of bisexuality runs along the same lines as looking at something like transgendered individuals. When you're talking about gender, most of modern society still sees it as a strict dichotomy between male and female. The same thing translates into sexuality. Now that homosexuality is becoming more acceptable (little by little), it's the shades of grey that make people uncomfortable. Now that we have 2 clear definitions of sexuality (heterosexual and homosexual), society wants you to choose one or the other.
I myself have nothing against the bisexual community, but I feel that since there now is this dichotomous split between gay and straight that people do not understand the concept of bisexuality. It's the either/or mentality that causes the misconceptions about bisexuality as a whole -- ie. seeing it as an excuse for promiscuity, etc. And this is the reason why both camps have trouble accepting it as a legitimate orientation.
The same logic is behind why people have trouble understanding transgendered individuals -- people believe that you are born as physically male or female (obviously mistaking sex for gender). The new prevalent view on sexuality in the scientific community suggests the same thing -- you are born as either gay or straight. So even in this new perspective, bisexuals are left in the dark. And as always, people find it simpler to reject the inbetween rather than understand it.
Just my two cents.
yeah, that
I myself have nothing against the bisexual community, but I feel that since there now is this dichotomous split between gay and straight that people do not understand the concept of bisexuality. It's the either/or mentality that causes the misconceptions about bisexuality as a whole -- ie. seeing it as an excuse for promiscuity, etc. And this is the reason why both camps have trouble accepting it as a legitimate orientation.
I think that this is really true. I worked with a woman whose daughter had come out as a lesbian, but later started dating a man. And she said to me that she supported her daughter as lesbian, but she really didn't understand what to do now that her daughter seemed open to relationships with both men and women.
It's just a matter of time
Society as a whole needs time to process change. The concept of bisexuality hasn't been around all that long (not even when compared to homosexuality). At least not in such clearly defined terms. I mean, the bisexuals has been there, but not the concept itself. Society was just recently able to digest the homosexuality thing and now there's this whole new variable to absorb and deal with. Give it a few years to catch up.
I think The L Word reflects this struggle. Rather hamhanded and crudely, but still.
well yes
It likely will come in time, but right now mainstream society is still getting used to the idea of homosexuality... so it will definately take a while to fill in the blanks.
As far as the L Word is concerned... Is the representation crude? Yes. But, unrealistic? Sadly, no.
Many bisexuals who exist in the lesbian community for an extended period of time and then decide they want to persue a heterosexual relationship do face the sort of discrimination that Tina is facing from the other L Word characters -- similar to the way a woman who has identified as a bisexual but has been in exclusively heterosexual relationships may face discrimination from her peers should she choose to date another woman.
It's a catch 22, and, as I mentioned in my previous post, bisexuals consistently get the short end of the stick.
Yes.