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US: Is the anti-gay movement more organized than the pro-gay movement?In the most recent Newsweek to show up in my mailbox...it stated that they got over 40,000 readers who responded to their coverstory titled "The Religious Case for Gay Marriage." And also according to Newsweek, the vast majority of those 40,000 responses were as a result of a letter-writing campaign encouraged by the American Family Association. So...reading all of this...I started to wonder...is the anti-gay movement more organized than the pro-gay movement...? And if yes...why...? I am not trying to be wise...nor asking a question I already think I have the answer to... I really would like to hear what people think about this. If you didn't read the Newsweek article...here is a link...
Submitted by Pyewacket (1495 posts) on December 28, 2008 - 2:12pm. |
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Of course
Everyone knows the anti-gay movement is lead by the church. These people get together at least once a week to organize, raise funds, and work towards their cause. And this is happening all across America.
The gay community doesn't have anything like this.. Except the gay club every Tuesday night (or whatever night it is in your town). Reminds me of one night I was leaving the club and there was a fight starting outside. A guy standing next to me says "why the hell we fightin' when we ain't got no rights?" And he was Exactly right.
The gay community is going to have to come a LONG way to be able to compete with the church as far as organizing is concerned.
I mean, the church may be the most organized group in the U.S. Even when they don't agree they're still more organized than the gay community would ever hope to be.
Hell, even the early civil rights movement had a good portion of the church on their side. They used the church to organize. It's one of the reasons the movement was so successful.
This is going to be a David vs. Goliath deal
Reading is Fundamental
I agree completely. The
I agree completely. The early civil rights movement was in every way dependent on the church. The Montgomery Improvement Association which was responsible for the Montgomery Bus Boycott was in effect a religious organization. They met in churches and related the whole philosophy of nonviolent passive resistance to the teachings of Jesus (as well as Gandhi). Even student organizations such as SNCC (Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee) originally based their philosophy on Christian teachings (pre-Stokely Carmichael, that is). This presents somewhat of an advantage for the civil rights movement when it comes to activist recruitment. Many white Christians felt compelled to support an organization headed by religious leaders and grounded in the teachings of Christianity. Unfortunately, we don't have this but our situation presents clear advantages as well. I think this is why Harvey Milk's strategy is likely our best bet. The more that straight people are exposed to the gay people around them, the more support our movement will receive as a whole. There are so many heterosexual individuals that are sure they've never met a homosexual in their whole entire lives. I even spoke to one such individual yesterday on the subject. If more of their friends and family came out, people they really cared about, I'm sure their resistance to gay rights would decrease significantly.
I think that a California student movement needs to be created. I mean, I'm sure that there are already organizations working to repeal Prop. 8 but I feel like there needs to be one stretching from San Diego to Humboldt County. We need young people who are committed to the cause to picket on college campuses and recruit other activists, both gay and straight. I know that if we organized a rally at my university and had activists handing out flyers in every dorm college on campus we would have a huge turnout. I guess I just think there needs to be more commitment, a greater sense of urgency, maybe even more anger on our part, to drive an effective gay rights organization.
need
There Needs to be a movement stretching from San Diego to Portland, Maine.
The Church is organizing nationwide. They came from everywhere to support prop 8.
We need help from all across the country.
Reading is Fundamental
Join the Impact
I think Join The Impact is doing that. They're really just providing the online resource to get people to organize where they are.
Do you think the movement or the idea of a movement needs to be sold to gays first though? Because it seems like it does to me. It seems like we've had an information lapse to make up for.
That's something that can be
500,000 Gays Marched in 1987
On Washington. Here's a video: 1987 Gay Rights March on Washington
Oh look, it's Nancy Pelosi...then newly elected. Now Speaker of the House.
Another 300,000 marched in 1993.
We used to be legion. This is the problem. I see a lot of people talking about the movements of MLK and Ghandi...and other movements, but no one seems to know anything about the gay rights movement pre-Prop 8. Of course we can organize because we used to be organized but if fell apart in the last decade.
We aren't organized and we
We aren't organized and we aren't even all on the same page. We don't have strong leaders in the community. We do have a few famous gays, but they are famous and happen to be gay, they aren't famous because of their civil rights work. I think a lot of LGBTs aren't 100% invested in marriage, whether that be because they don't believe it will ever happen, or marriage isn't a priority or whatever.
Too many in our community are closeted or semi closeted. They risk losing their jobs or status by being true to themselves. Unfortuantely, this cuts down on visibility and it's easier to deny our existence.
Sometimes I think it's easier for folks to be up and arms about something they're against, than for something they are for.
Pro-Gay Approach rather than Organization..
(Please don’t take the paragraph above. I did give that to my university and I don’t really like having my writing stolen)
Side Note: I'm not saying all pro-gay groups are vicious in their attacks, nor am I saying all anti-gay groups are innocent. Both sides have many different types of players. I'm talking about the voices heard by the media and the images portrayed by each side.
You don't like saying anti-gay?
They're anti-gay and they hate homosexuality. You're in some serious denial.
Denying the denial
So you're allowed to label every person that isn't for gay marriage (or the spreading of gay "propaganda") as someone who hates homosexuals? Does that mean they should label every one of us as straight-haters?
I believe the phrase many kind religious people use is "hate the sin not the sinner." They have a right to think it's wrong, just as we have the right to think it's normal. If we want them to accept our views, we have to accept theirs. Does that mean I will stop loving my girlfriend? No. Does that mean they have to perform marriage ceremonies for homosexuals? No. Everyone will always differ in opinion, the question is will we be willing to live peacefully with each other?
I am friends with many religious people who love and care for me and they don't support gay marriage. It isn't personal, it's just their beliefs clashing with mine. And we're fine with it. I'm not in denial. You can't label everyone under the same negative label like that.
Kind Religious What?
"hate the sin not the sinner"
Translation: Hate homosexuality not the homo.
How 'bout this one: Hate the femininity not the woman. See how much sense that makes?
They have a right to think your existence is wrong. You really wanna go with that?
Do you not think your rights are personal?
If we accept their view that homosexuality is wrong, they will what...accept our view that homosexuality isn't wrong? Are you kidding?
You can't live in peace if you're being discriminated against. Do you understand that this is a fight for civil rights? Do you understand that their "beliefs" mean you being treated as a second class citizen? They believe you are not equal. You are inferior and thus do not deserve the same rights that they have.
You wanna live in peaceful oppression the rest of your life, hey go for it. But don't ask me to eat that shit.
Twisting words
In an effort to avoid you twisting my words, I'll put it simply. We need to respect them as human beings in order for them to respect us as human beings. Negativity doesn't yield results. During the Civil Rights Movement no one expected the racists to change their minds. The idea was to change society, not individuals. Society won't change if we remain negative towards the other side.
And I believe my original post was encouraging changing our approach so we can get change. So please don't tell me I want to live in oppression or that I don't want change. History has proven how we can get our rights; so until we learn from the past we can't have the future we want.
Which Past?
If you knew the history of the Gay Rights Movement...even the last decade of it...you would know that what your suggesting was already tried, and failed. In fact we are worse off than we were. And I feel a little sorry for you because now you tolerate what we were just ignoring. The Gay Rights Movement has been going on since the 60s. Do you know what our various approaches have been? You know about the Civil Rights Movement, but do you know about the Gay Rights Movement?
You need to know what our approach was before you go suggesting we change it. See, what we've done since Nov. 4th is change the approach from the approach you're suggesting we change to. hello? Your approach is what got Prop 8 passed in the first place. Your approach already didn't work. Now we are trying a new aggressive one. Lets not go around in circles here.
I'll admit I haven't looked
I'll admit I haven't looked into all the approaches of the Gay Rights Movement, but I just don't see how swearing, hating, and at times acting childish can be productive. Aggressive doesn't necessarily mean those things, but that's what is being portrayed to the public at this time. Be aggressive, but don't do anything to damage the Gay Image because that image is what will lose or win the votes and acceptance of those who haven't made a decision.
Do What?
Who suggested swearing and hating? I'm talking about protesting, petitioning and not tolerating being called deviants, sinners and child molesters. We don't deserve to be spoken of that way. If we simply let people talk that way about us without challenging it they will continue to do it. So when someone says something derrogatory about gays, we call them a homophobe, anti-gay and/or a bigot. It's not childish to call something for what it is. It's demanding respect.
It's no different than calling someone who says a racial slur a racist, or someone who says something derrogatory about women a sexist. We just keep doing it until we change the language. And when we change how people talk about us we change society.
But first we have to believe that we are worthy of respect. We are not sinners and it is wrong for people to call us sinners.
Very True
I agree with you. And I'm not suggesting that people are told to go out and be hateful, swearing, childish, etc. but that's what they are doing. Look at the media coverage. The media will always focus on the negative aspects of the side they aren't in support of, or don't have an opinion of. Until groups get together and express a need to be calm and controlled during their protests and as individuals, the negative coverage will continue. I don't want to associate myself with individuals who represent a group and do so negatively, but I'm all for mature, well-planned petitions, protests, and rallies. Action needs to be taken, but it's taking the correct action that is the trick. Individuals are destroying the entire community with their stupid actions.
Religion is not an excuse
Religion is not an excuse for hate- whether or not you want to use the words anti-gay is your choice.
I don't think you have to worry about anyone stealing your work-- you haven't said anything unique or said it in a way that makes it hot property, lol.
I agree with the premise of peaceful protesting, and I think it speaks louder than unpeaceful protesting.
True Religion
True religion preaches love and not hate, so I agree, no religion can be an excuse for hate.
And I realize that my writing wasn't anything special, it was just in a paper I wrote so I need to make sure it doesn't somehow get circulated because I could get in trouble for plagiarism. I didn't think anyone would take it, but better safe than sorry.
The AFA
Also did a letter writing campaign to get advertisers to drop out of Ellen's coming out episode way back when. And they were pretty successful. There were hardly any commercials. Their movement and organization is totally not new. Any time there's a gay character on a TV show, they start complaining to the network and the FCC.
They're also threatening to boycott Cambell's soup because they ran an ad in the Advocate.
Cambell isn't backing down...so you know...go buy soup! LOL
Soup Maker Ignores Calls To End Gay-Marketed Ads
Campbell's Keeps Gay Ad, Resists Pressure
ETA: Thanks to Google's news search by year, I dug up an article from 1997 when Ellen's coming out episode aired.
'Ellen' to embrace homosexuality; Oprah Winfrey plays support role
The AFA has Ellen's cancellation in the About page as a victory.
Then there's this wonderful piece of crap.
Join the Impact
Things that need to happen, (most have already been said)
EVERYONE needs to come out. TO EVERYONE.
If lgbt really want to make an impact then we have to come out to everyone. Parents, work, military, friends, family, government, community, networks, on the internets, EVERYONE.
EVERYONE needs to know who we are.
THen we need to get together and bum rush the courts and legislature. Petition, Lobby, file grievances, File lawsuits.
Write letters to our representatives, our insurance companies, our hospitals, our courts.
We need to get together on the net AND in person, weekly, biweekly, daily.
We need to quit this bullshit and come together. LGBTQQI are all fighting for the same freedoms. one group isn't more privileged than the other. We all need each other to make this happen.
If you've EVER had an attraction to someone of the same sex then you're a part of this. AND we all need to ACCEPT each other.
Reading is Fundamental
Powerfully Well Said
www.myspace.com/lunakiss7.com
Powerfully Well Said. I agree with you jackedup77.
"Speak your mind, be the truth."
thefemininedivine.blogspot.com
Online Grassroots Style
http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com/
Go to the site, scroll through the menu on the left. Find your state, and the closest city. If there isn't an organizer, become one. You don't need training and you don't need money.
I'm connected with my local people on Facebook. This is how we communicate a local event. Join the Impact thinks up events for all of us to try to do at the same time Nationwide. Then someone from my local area creates an event on Facebook and sends the invite to everyone. Our predecessors used to use phone chains. We do it faster with Facebook.
After the event we go back to the Join The Impact site and post our photos, videos and stories of the event to our local page.
Next Event is: Nationwide DOMA Protest Saturday January 10th, 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMCxNm7YyxM
Don't wait for gay rights organizations to do it for you. I sent emails to every gay rights organization and gay community center in my state asking them to organize a protest for Nov. 15th and they didn't do shit. Instead, we were organized by a couple of college kids with no money.
I think some of the answers are in all of these replies.
Seems to me that everyone has touched upon several of the reasons why the anti-gay movement is more organized than the pro-gay movement. But I also see them using the internet as a great tool to make everyone feel a part of the bigger cause.
But I also wonder...is in simply a part of human nature to be able to better organize people when they are against something rather then when they are for an issue or a cause...?
Like I read many places that the passing of Prop 8 was a good thing because it will mobilize people across the country and this will end up being an issue on the federal level...and the gay community will prevail.
And if you go over to the AFA sites...you will see how they rally the troops by being so focused on defeating anyone and anything that supports 'homosexual causes.'
Right now, their new target is PepsiCo...because the company gave $500,000 to PFLAG and $500,000 to HRC.
They have letters and the name and address at PepsiCo to contact.
They also have links to the HRC site to show the benefits package PepsiCo offers to their gay employees.
This is not that difficult a thing to do...so why isn't there a one-stop-shopping website for the gay community and its supporters to go to for information like this...to write in support of those who support us...as well as target those who are anti...and spread the message at the churches that welcome gays...as well as respectfully speak up against those who do not.
I also wonder if the infighting that comes up in the gay community regarding bisexuality as well as transgenders...and who should really be included in the gay community...significant obstacles that prevent us from coming together to work for the great good of us all.
AFA PepsiCo Boycott 1
AFA PepsiCo Boycott 2
We did it once...
Ever hear of Dr. Laura? God it feels like ages ago. She still has a radio show. Well, she almost got a TV show back in 2000. She would call gays "biological errors" all the time. And we organized a boycott and got most of her advertisers to back out and she was cancelled before she even started.
Aside from that moment, we do have an organization that is supposed to do exactly what you described: GLAAD
The question is whether or not our organizations are effective. I don't think they are.
As far as the self-loathing infighting goes, uhmm...it's a clusterfuck. I mean, if you ever step outside the LGBT women's community we have here and go to a general LGBT site with both men and women... it's LGBT women v. LGBT men. It's pretty absurd when I have to start sticking up for gay men because they're being attacked by feminist lesbians. And then there's the whole OUT cover fiasco. We seriously have a problem fighting each other on all sides.
I forgot about Dr Laura.
But that example I think might confirm my suspicion concerning human nature and being able to rally people more easily when it is about being against something then being for and supporting something.
I bet it would be easier to get people in the gay community to come together to act against Rick Warren then to support a specific campaign for ourselves and our rights.
GLAAD...from my experience...has stopped representing the community to the media and is now representing the media to the community.
And what you wrote about the infighting does not surprise me, unfortunately, and goes to show that we are our own biggest obstacle. Just look at the anti-gay marriage comments made by celebrity gays who of course get the media's attention and will be quoted.
It is a shame.
Remembering
Once I remembered I realized... we never used to tolerate the kind of speech Warren uses now. During the Stop Dr. Laura campaign, I don't recall many gays thinking we could reach out to her. It was just "Get her off the stage".
And it's not just Warren. There should've been a helluva lot more bitching when Bill O'Reilly did that lesbian gang pink pistols story. GLAAD's response was weak. I was outraged.
I feel like somewhere along the line we got used to being spoken of like we're garbage. And now people think it's okay to have that "opinion."
I think if we focused on something, we'd come together. We just have make sure to invite everyone for whatever it is. I think without direction or something to fight, we just fight each other.
The problem with fighting for something like legislation is: Some gays don't support hate crime legislation or ENDA, and some don't support gay marriage. We get partisan and political with each other. There's always someone trying to throw a wrench in it.
The AIDS crisis brought us together...because it was a matter of life and death.
RE: come together for specific issue
"I bet it would be easier to get people in the gay community to come together to act against Rick Warren then to support a specific campaign for ourselves and our rights."
I agree with you, Pyewacket.
I have a question: would the televison ratings for the Inauguration be affected if many lgbt and allies did not watch Rick Warren give the prayer?
Already posted article in thread.
Someone already posted this article.
http://www.afterellen.com/node/41520Different Subject
You're welcome.
You're welcome. (sarcasm) And another reason why I had posted the link is a link I had provided. The link is for anyone who wants to provide support for the article.
Which obviously you did not (possibly) know of. Thank you.
You have a point.
I followed the links to see that the HRC had a page trying to rally people to write in to Newsweek in support of the article.
So the relgious right don't drown out the voices of equality.
But according to Newsweek, that is basically what happened.
HRC Newsweek link
of course anti-gay is well organized
in the south i feel as if we are open and gay that is all that akit if oeioke think we can do. it is thought that California is ages ahead of us and there is alot of distance and there should not be. what if you don't live in Dallas or Atlanta or any openly LGBT community in the south there is nowhere to turn and when we try to get our voices heard there is no one listening. The anti-gay movement has the church and all these websites and political tactics and lobbyists on our sides we are nowhere near that organized. the LGBT community needs to wake up and realize there is a world outside of West Hollywood, The Village, ATL Rainbowland, and all that stuff what about the ones outside that area that you distance yourself from.
"It's easier to remove the hunger for bread than the hunger for love" -Mother Theresa
Lady Vols #1
We Need An Enlightment and A Pro -Active Movement
www.myspace.com/lunakiss7.com
The point of movement is to move. The Anti-gay movement do just that. They move in masses together. They also succeed in their messages because they have nothing to fear or lose. The Pro-gay movement will have to be moved by indiviuals for the masses. Closeted indiviuals who make up the masses need an enlightment because they're closeted aka live in fear. If the Pro-gayment have an enlightment movement,in other words,give closeted individuals support and love and reason and spiritual positvitiy and strength then more individuals will opt to come out in masses. Perhaps it will take one leader to initate this. This leader will be a brave, enlightening soulwho is ruled only by divine love and walk a spiritual path. This person will pull together others to join this movement of a different kind in a different way. I see all good things coming. I see this person working with allies who are real like Obama and Nancy Pelosi. I see movement moving in the right direction. It's like we will have our own Ghandi/Joan of Arc/Martin Luther King Jr wrapped in one. I wouldn't be surprised it is a SHE Who Will Move Maases Creating A Better Pro-Gay Movement.
"Speak your mind, be the truth."
thefemininedivine.blogspot.com
Gay Gandhi.
You know, I had been wondering about this. Wondering if this is what we have been missing for real movement and progress for gay rights as a whole.
Not to say that there has not been a lot of people doing a lot of hard work...but there has not been progress on the federal level here in the US.
So I have been wondering if we are in serious need of an individual who can transcend...and can lead...like Gandhi and MLK.
hmmm...
How many go to non LGBT political sites?
My favorite site that's not centered on LGBT issues is Newsvine. I go there and get into pretty lengthy debates with anti-gay people. All civil of course. I debate everything...the Bible, the law, science.
I don't think I ever win. I don't know if I change any minds. But I do get to know how they think, their rationale and the lengths they'll go to to justify their beliefs. I get in their heads and try to figure out where they're coming from.
And then I come here...and I just want to shake people. I know I get impatient and I know I'm an ass at times. But it feels like we're all just trying to sell each other on our ideas for how we can achieve equality. And few attempt to actually try and sell their idea to the opposition.
Just try it and see how it goes. I'll give you a little teaser. The common belief on the other side is that all gay people are bisexual and white.
Preaching to the choir.
But it feels like we're all just trying to sell each other on our ideas for how we can achieve equality. And few attempt to actually try and sell their idea to the opposition.
I thought that myself and it seemed most noticeable to me during the Prop 8 campaign. The anti-Prop 8 message was really meant for people who were already going to vote No.
Oh, and while I don't go to other sites to debate to get an idea of what is going on with the opposition...but I do search and read their point-of-view...and watch Fox News. Ugh.
And besides them seeing all gay people as white and bisexual (which I agree)...I would also like to add that they also see all gay people as people of no faith...non-religious...and specifically not Christian.
We're Outnumbered and We Have Short Attention Spans
I have several Google News Alerts set up on my personal Google news page. And I just realized something interesting about my news alert for the term "gay". There has been a steady stream of articles in defense of Rick Warren participating in the Inauguration. I count 9 just in the last 24 hours. There are 0 criticizing the Rick Warren selection.
And in most of these pro-Warren articles, gays are accused of whining and being intolerant. Really? Looks to me like we're not even really talking about it anymore. At least not in any outward way. We might still debating amongst each other, but no longer actually engaging the other side while they just kick us around.
We can debate with each other for months on end about the left vs the right and tolerance, diversity, sexual fluidity, identity and whatever else we don't agree on with each other. But when it comes to engaging the Anti-Gay Movement on an issue we fizzle after a week or two.
Maybe we don't like looking like we're beating a dead horse or have a bone to pick. Or maybe it's because all the gay media outlets took a vacation. But the opposition is totally relentless. They don't take vacations.
It can wear a person down.
You are right, the opposition is relentless.
But I must say that having to be concerned about finances, the job, school, family and so much more for the majority of us...on a daily basis...the last thing many of us want to deal with is such negativity being directed right at you.
It sucks.
But with that said, it would be nice if even here at AE we got a folder where people could post the latest petitions and letter-writing campaigns...and whatever else in support of gay rights and each other...so that it would be one-stop-shopping...and we would not have to hunt around for the links among posts debating the finer points of the issue.
I think much of the info people post here about what we can do to help gets lost among the debates.
Pyewacket....I agree
www.myspace.com/lunakiss7.com
I wouldn't mind reading those latest petitions and letter-winning campaigns. On Shewired.com. They mentioned in an article about JoinTheImpact founder. It was very information to me that a 21-year old began it. As more and more young people take over especially on activism and use the internet as the major communicator to spread the word about protest here and there. We need to know about this. It is afterall LGBTQI news.
I love it if an aftellen reader and afterellen would team up and do a daily vblog via webcam (as side gig or full). about what's going on in the news. Also I think advice columnist would be nice. I rather this person would be a professional. Aftellen lost Cathy in that area.
My only connection to the gay world is via internet.
A line taken from my poem "She" It is SHE who awakens my soul..."
thefemininedivine.blogspot.com
Great suggestions,
Great suggestions, Pyewacket and Miss Ketina.
So far, I mainly get LGBT information and communicate with others on the Internet as well.