The Scientology headquarters is in Clearwater, Fl. About 20 minutes from me actually. I don't know much about it, but a lot of people consider it to be very near a cult. At least those who aren't Scientologists.

I suggest the Harry Potter religious cult. Here ... have a bible.

[img:6a2ea6aaed]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e11/danibgoode/jesushpotter2vm.jpg[/img:6a2ea6aaed]

[quote:4ecce1e643="kemy"]How Long ago did scientology started up???[/quote:4ecce1e643]

It was started by L. Ron Hubbard in the early 1950s, based on a philosophy book whose name escapes me at the moment. People began applying the teachings in his book, and a religion was born.

[quote:4ecce1e643]I considered it a cult group... in my opinion...

Maybe we should start one :lol: our own reglion, for the gay and Lesbians....

That'll shock the world... [/quote:4ecce1e643]

A lot of people think it's a cult, but in defence of a friend of mine who is a scientologist I think it's dangerous to call anyone's faith cult-like. I mean, I don't think it's any more of a cult than fundamentalist Christians brainwashing their parishioners with hate. People believe in some pretty wacky things, but the only reason it's wacky to us is because it's different from our own set of beliefs, and if GLBT rights are any testament, just because a majority of people feel one way doesn't make them "right."

Now if Scientologists were staging mass suicides so their members could join aliens on some mothership... okay, that's a cult. :P

I actually read that Hubbard book ... Dianetics when I was in high school.

I remember picking it up and saying, "Hey, it's a book with quizzes. I love quizzes."

Alas, it was the strangest, most boring thing I've ever read in my life. It did take care of my insomnia for awhile, though.

I don't consider it a cult any more than other religions, though. They have extreme beliefs, but the same can be said of lots of other strange religions.

After Tom Cruise went wacky on poor Matt Lauer (seriously, how can anyone attack Lauer?), I looked up Scientology and a lot of other religions, many of which I had never heard of before. It's a wild, weird world.

But to each their own. (Unless they're promoting hate, in which case, I will speak my mind.)

The big thing about Scientology is that it has big bucks. I would venture to guess that the Catholic religion is a bit threatened by another group with money to spend. (And they're not even considered part of the Big 7.)

Oh, yeah, you can find out about a bazillion religions (with fairly little bias as far as I can see) at www.beliefnet.net.

I found this little tidbit about the Dianetics book.

What Scientologists Believe
A brief overview ...

Mind Over Matter
How Scientology's founder science-fiction writer, L. Ron Hubbard, created a religion of individualism and personal power.

What are the central tenets of Scientology?

The tenets evolved over time. The movement started in 1950 as Dianetics, when [L. Ron] Hubbard published his book "Dianetics," originally in a science-fiction magazine, "Astounding Science Fiction."

Dianetics was originally more a self-help therapy, superficially pretty similar to psychoanalysis--basically an understanding of how the mind works and how to remove problematic memory traces from the mind.

So they're talking about your mind... All I hear brainwashing..i my opinion... 8O

I think it's a mind over matter theory, for sure.

But as I understand it, they believe they can actually influence the world around them (and not in the way you and I would think of being able to change things).

Plus ... isn't there some sort of alien element to the whole thing? I don't know. There's like 8 degrees to John Travolta or something.

Actually, I don't mean to mock the religion.

I think it took a major hit from the TomKat scandal. But if it helps people cope with their lives and live well, I can't criticize it.

Well, maybe [thinks of a joke] ... no, I'm leaving them alone. The brainwashing argument can be said for any religion (in the extreme).

I just can't handle another alien abduction.

[img:7af4df0f3f]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e11/danibgoode/My%20Peeps/abduct.gif[/img:7af4df0f3f]

[/i]

[quote:edba9ceb1e="Danni71"]Well, maybe [thinks of a joke] ... no, I'm leaving them alone. The brainwashing argument can be said for any religion (in the extreme).[/quote:edba9ceb1e]

Yes, I think that's the best point to make. If Christianity were not so mainstream, wouldn't we laugh when people said some guy was sitting in the clouds playing "ant farm" and creating an entire world, and another guy was making the sea separate because he waved his little stick (I could go on)?

The person who believed that would be sent away to a padded room, but because it's common, we accept it as normal.

[quote:9e965f0345="koma"]
A lot of people think it's a cult, but in defence of a friend of mine who is a scientologist I think it's dangerous to call anyone's faith cult-like. I mean, I don't think it's any more of a cult than fundamentalist Christians brainwashing their parishioners with hate. People believe in some pretty wacky things, but the only reason it's wacky to us is because it's different from our own set of beliefs, and if GLBT rights are any testament, just because a majority of people feel one way doesn't make them "right."
[/quote:9e965f0345]

well, yes and no (and that to all 'to each their own' arguments). I mean, I'll be the last one to judge someone on her/his beliefs just cause it's different from mine. Indeed, to each their own. It becomes a different matter, though, when your beliefs are affecting the lives of the non-believers around you in a negative way. Indeed, like for instance fundamentalist Christians.
I never really occupied myself that much with Scientology, but what I find really dodgy about this cult (and yes, when a beliefsystem is only available for those who have the big bucks, I do call it a cult, no offense to your friend, Koma) is the lack of transparancy. Nobody who isn't actually [i:9e965f0345]in[/i:9e965f0345] the Scientology church knows what their beliefsystem is. In fact, any non- or ex-believer who opens a book about the beliefs of the Scientology Church gets their ass sued until eternity. (and then the Scientologists drop the case just before a final verdict, so that the person they sued has lost a lot of money).
Recently, the dutch writer Karin Spaink and her internetprovider XS4ALL have actually won a 10-year long courtcase against Scientology, she was sued because she put up a mirror of a website on which some texts of Scientology were published.
For anybody who wants to have a more rounded view of the practices of Scientology, she also has a lot of essays and other stuff on her website (in English) at www.spaink.net

euhm... yeah. thats it for now

[quote:465e01acd8="windeater"]I never really occupied myself that much with Scientology, but what I find really dodgy about this cult (and yes, when a beliefsystem is only available for those who have the big bucks, I do call it a cult, no offense to your friend, Koma) is the lack of transparancy. [/quote:465e01acd8]

My friend's entire family are Scientologists, and they're not millionaires (as far as I know!) so I don't know where you got the idea that you have to "buy" into it. She was born into it, just like I was born into Catholicism (and later rejected it by free will).

Just because the only Scientologists you know are celebrities doesn't mean they're the only ones who exist. I've seen pictures of a whole gaggle of my friend's Scientology associates doing relief work in the Gulf Coast region after Hurricane Katrina, and none of them were Tom Cruise. ;)

[quote:465e01acd8]Recently, the dutch writer Karin Spaink and her internetprovider XS4ALL have actually won a 10-year long courtcase against Scientology, she was sued because she put up a mirror of a website on which some texts of Scientology were published. [/quote:465e01acd8]

Based on the facts you provided in your post, she [i:465e01acd8]should[/i:465e01acd8] have been sued. It's illegal to reprint and/or distribute copyrighted material (that includes mirroring sites that have reprinted material). If I put up the text from, well, [i:465e01acd8]any[/i:465e01acd8] book not in the public domain, I'd be sued too.

[quote:465e01acd8]In fact, any non- or ex-believer who opens a book about the beliefs of the Scientology Church gets their ass sued until eternity. (and then the Scientologists drop the case just before a final verdict, so that the person they sued has lost a lot of money). [/quote:465e01acd8]

I find it hard to believe that I would get sued for walking into Barnes and Noble and opening up a copy of Dianetics. It's a mass market paperback, as are countless other Scientology books. They've sold millions of copies.

[quote:465e01acd8]Nobody who isn't actually in the Scientology church knows what their beliefsystem is. [/quote:465e01acd8]

I think the Scientology belief system is fairly well known for those who, like all other religions, seek it out. Now I will be the first person to stand in the Agnostic line and love it, but I have read about Scientology on my own and I can tell you plenty about their belief system. There is no "lack of transparency" if you actually [i:465e01acd8]try[/i:465e01acd8] to understand it. Really, when you can Wiki something and learn the fundamental tenets of that religion, I think that's pretty darned transparent. :P

Of course, just like with any other religion, you have to buy the book and practise it to get the full experience, but again, I don't think this is radically different from any other set of beliefs. We just happen to know about Jesus and stuff already because it's such a part of our culture. Perhaps one day we'll say the same thing about the ARC triangle.

[:cheerleader: Yay for healthy debate! :cheerleader:]

[quote:9059fadae7="koma"]

My friend's entire family are Scientologists, and they're not millionaires (as far as I know!) so I don't know where you got the idea that you have to "buy" into it. She was born into it, just like I was born into Catholicism (and later rejected it by free will).

Just because the only Scientologists you know are celebrities doesn't mean they're the only ones who exist. I've seen pictures of a whole gaggle of my friend's Scientology associates doing relief work in the Gulf Coast region after Hurricane Katrina, and none of them were Tom Cruise. ;)[/quote:9059fadae7]

wow i wasnt aware that they were around long enough have second generation Scientologists. In any case, my argument of 'buying yourself into it' wasnt based on the fact that most Scientologists I know are celebrities, but on what I have heard of fellow students who tried to research Scientology (am an anthropologist myself). Basically their experience is that they will a general overview of information, but they were not allowed to talk to any of the people in the church and it was suggested that if they want to learn more they should take a €5000 course.

I'm not saying scientologists are wrong people, and since i don't know anything of their beliefsystem I sure have no right to judge thát. Maybe I should have phrased my argument differently and is the thing that really troubles me (and, as far as I know, a lot of other people) the lack of transparency of the [i:9059fadae7]institution[/i:9059fadae7]. In the Netherlands there has been quite some scandal about dodgy businesses this branch of the church was in.

In any case, I'll admit I rushed into this debate without properly reading up on it. Thanks for your reply, I'll be a good girl and do some research now before I get into it just for debates sake :wink:

[quote:9059fadae7][:cheerleader: Yay for healthy debate! :cheerleader:][/quote:9059fadae7]
:D Anytime, anywhere, any subjecte lady :D

well, 'cept about computer stuff.

or euhm, cuddly animals.
really not much to say about cuddly animals

I don't know much about it either except that it's a big celebrity thing. Erika Christensen is a Scientologist, actually *glances at avatar*, and they don't really look too kindly on the gay folks. :?

[quote:08b54724cb="windeater"]I have heard of fellow students who tried to research Scientology (am an anthropologist myself). Basically their experience is that they will a general overview of information, but they were not allowed to talk to any of the people in the church and it was suggested that if they want to learn more they should take a €5000 course. [/quote:08b54724cb]

Wow, that's news to me. I won't say whether or not I believe that's common practise :P, but it does seem to fly in the face of the fact that religions must be constantly recruiting new sheep, err, parishioners. ;)

[quote:08b54724cb]Maybe I should have phrased my argument differently and is the thing that really troubles me (and, as far as I know, a lot of other people) the lack of transparency of the [i:08b54724cb]institution[/i:08b54724cb]. In the Netherlands there has been quite some scandal about dodgy businesses this branch of the church was in.[/quote:08b54724cb]

Strictly for the sake of debate :P, I believe the same could be said about most religions. Catholicism immediately comes to mind (and how 'bout those dodgy sex abuse scandals?).

I know Elvis extensively studied every religion except Scientology. He met with some Scientologist but left angry saying "Man, all they want is my money."

To me, religion should be available to everyone of every time period. Like it has to be everyone's saving grace. I know I'm not saying this right. But religion should be timeless. I mean, Scientology was started several decades ago by a SCIENCE FICTION WRITER. I dun think I'd follow a religion started by a man known for his works of fiction.

There's a place here where they 'recrute' anyone. They give you these stress tests and all that. They tried to recrute me a few times and I was like, "sorry dude. I'm already commited". I walk by it during the summer. It's weird. I'm not disrespecting them or anything like that, but I just get this bad feeling/vibe about them.

[quote:44f71cc048="code3"]To me, religion should be available to everyone of every time period. Like it has to be everyone's saving grace. I know I'm not saying this right. But religion should be timeless.[/quote:44f71cc048]

Timeless? Christianity was a novel idea when Jesus was babbling about it 2000 years ago (and remember, the Jews thought he was crazy). :P 700 years later, Islam was the world's newest religion. The Protestant Reformation wasn't until the 1500s. Mormonism is less than 200 years old.

Now I'm not saying Scientology is or isn't as "great" as those faiths, but time is relative to perspective.

One of the reasons I reject any major organized religion I've looked into is the history of greed that runs through all of them.

Catholic churches, for instance, are so grand in scale ... but they demand 10% of my wages? So they can build what? You guessed it, bigger, lovelier churches.

They are architectual works of art, no doubt. But they make me a little skeptical about the whole thing.

[img:6dc12656aa]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e11/danibgoode/jesus-tee.gif[/img:6dc12656aa]

[quote:614c6aaddc="koma"]
Timeless? Christianity was a novel idea when Jesus was babbling about it 2000 years ago (and remember, the Jews thought he was crazy). :P 700 years later, Islam was the world's newest religion. The Protestant Reformation wasn't until the 1500s. Mormonism is less than 200 years old.

Now I'm not saying Scientology is or isn't as "great" as those faiths, but time is relative to perspective.[/quote:614c6aaddc]

That's not quite the same thing though. All of those religions didn't come out of thin air (or, for that matter, the pen of a quite bad science fiction writer), but were variations on an already existing theme, namely Judaism, which has been around for a whole lot longer. Judaism itself, or more specifically the Thora, as the Bible and the Qoran, are collections of stories that have been told and retold for centuries before they were even written down, and are the legacy of how the people viewed the world some millennia ago, before even the written word.

My point being, there is a difference between beliefsystems that have been created by a society, or societies, through the course of centuries, and beliefsystems that have are entirely based on the writings of one man.

Not passing a valuejudgement here, just stating the difference.

Now, when it comes to what is exactly religion and what not, we got ourselves a whole different debate...

Mormonism is based on a book by Joseph Smith. (This is where you argue that Mormonism is also based, however loosely, on existing religions, isn't it? :P And I don't know enough about it to debate you. :P)

IMHO, all religions are faiths, i.e. you're trusting in some book as the most applicable gospel to your life. Personally, I think the Bible is laughable, and I'd much rather invest my thoughts in a philosophy, which Scientology claims itself to be. If anything, Scientology says it is based in a lot more science than Christianity (in fact, Christianity pretty much says they're not interested in science at all, but rather in intelligent design and such. "Why do we have hurricanes? God did it." etc)

Not that I'm ready to convert from Agnosticism just yet though. ;)

should we create a religion thread? wait, we have one right? just wondering

[quote:5cd3319c28="msgulp"]should we create a religion thread? wait, we have one right? just wondering[/quote:5cd3319c28]

We have a Christianity thread. :?

Unless you want to make an "All Religions" thread, I think we're okay for right now 'cause we're still talking about Scientology (by comparing it to other religions). :)

shoudl we make a general religion thread? y'know, to debate the nature of religion, compare and contrast, etc?

This tells you all about Scientology; what it is, what it takes to become a scientologist etc...[url=http://www.scientologyreligion.org.uk/]Scientology[/url]

[quote:b75a1b4a7a="msgulp"]shoudl we make a general religion thread? y'know, to debate the nature of religion, compare and contrast, etc?[/quote:b75a1b4a7a]

I wouldn't complain. :)

well then how abt you go do it. :P

[quote:2b732669ad="msgulp"]well then how abt you go do it. :P[/quote:2b732669ad]

:roll: I believe you have a better handle on the concept than I do. ;)

[quote:ef67dfa5f0="koma"]Mormonism is based on a book by Joseph Smith. (This is where you argue that Mormonism is also based, however loosely, on existing religions, isn't it? :P And I don't know enough about it to debate you. :P)[/quote:ef67dfa5f0]

8) gotcha.

[quote:ef67dfa5f0]IMHO, all religions are faiths, i.e. you're trusting in some book as the most applicable gospel to your life. Personally, I think the Bible is laughable, and I'd much rather invest my thoughts in a philosophy, which Scientology claims itself to be. If anything, Scientology says it is based in a lot more science than Christianity (in fact, Christianity pretty much says they're not interested in science at all, but rather in intelligent design and such. "Why do we have hurricanes? God did it." etc)

Not that I'm ready to convert from Agnosticism just yet though. ;)[/quote:ef67dfa5f0]

sure. some book, or more books. again, to each their own. preferences aside though, i am merely trying to state the differences in nature of established beliefs like christianity (and don't forget christianity covers a great spectrum of subbeliefs. a statement that christianity says its not interested in science at all is over-generalized, and in a lot of instances simply not true) and newer beliefs like scientology. is that difference important? i don't know... mhmm maybe i'll go and create that general religion thread then...

Regligions of all sizes, shapes and colour confuses me :crazy: :doh: :dunno:

No wonder I live in a very open minded family, cos mum was a christain and was a catholic... they gave up their reglion when they were a teenager...

Kemy...

Okay, those people look brainwashed. 8O

They quite possibly could be :P

Well you know it's a good religion when all they do is use sexist nouns: "man has the capability... man is essentially good..." etc. :rolleyes:

Here's an interesting website about their view of gays. It also includes a terrible story about the "deprogramming" of a young lesbian :? : http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/gays_and_scientologists.htm

For those who don't want to read the whole thing, have no fear! Our condition is simply a reactive, primitive state of mind, so all we need is to be enlightened and we will be cured. :rolleyes:

I have heard they threaten members that try and get out. It all looks like a cult or at the very least a big scam to me.

I lived in France for a while and at that time there was a big court case about scientologie, and I think they closed down their offices. They were accused for psychological abuse and sucking peoples property. After what I read Tom Cruis, and John Travolta are follower.

How Long ago did scientology started up???

I considered it a cult group... in my opinion...

Maybe we should start one :lol: our own reglion, for the gay and Lesbians....

That'll shock the world...

kemy