Ejem. Going back to the original theme, does anyone remember Vampire: Bloodlines? As a character you could chat up people to lure them into dark corners and drink their blood. And as a female character you could chat up girls! You could also contract the services of female prostitutes, and flirt with main female, sexy characters!

I loved that game!

Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Terry Pratchett

best game cuz you get to hook up two really hot chicks if you want to!

the dialogue choices in that game are awesome , the second i realized I had the option to hit on another girl character I was addicted

and i totally felt like a pimp cuz i knew just what to say and how far to go....and eventually the two ended up having a love story and it's actually super sweet! man i wanna play that game again lol

------------------

"Valentine's Day's coming? Aw crap! I forgot to get a girlfriend again!"- Fry

You are correct that "The Sims" isn't the first game to feature lesbian characters (actually I don't believe the article said it was), but in "Fear Effect" the lesbian characters were merely eye-candy. Their relationship was never explicitly defined, and the cut scenes featured scenes of them making out and performing strip teases. This is largely, as Tracy from ThumbBandits.com mentioned in a lengthier interview, "for the titillation of guys."

That doesn't seem very positive to me. :?

What the hell are you talking about now? "Fear effect" is a video game from years ago, before "Sims 2" came out. I just pointed out to anyone that cared that this is one of the first, if not the first time gay girls have been seen in this medium. You are acting if the game was the font of all evil or something, rather than just a bit of harmless fun.

Gay girls are always going to be viewed as sexy together(especially by me) The media is far from perfect in it's handling of lesbian relationships(hang your heads in shame "Eastenders" & "O.C") but I would rather enjoy anything fun or sexy involving girls together, even if it is not PC, rather than have my consciousness raised by you(not that it needs raising)

Okay, let me restate myself and the entire reason this debate got started. The very first thing you posted here was:

[quote:2a4d3b352d]After reading the article on lesbian characters in video game "Sims", I thought I would point out this is not the first game with [b:2a4d3b352d]positive lesbian characters[/b:2a4d3b352d] in it, "Fear Effect" on the PS1 had a lesbian couple in it. [/quote:2a4d3b352d]

The whole time you have been ignoring what I've been saying, I have been arguing against your opinion that these non-dynamic, male fantasy, eye candy lesbians in the game were [b:2a4d3b352d]positive characters[/b:2a4d3b352d]. Nothing more, nothing less, except for the fact that you seem to think I'm on a feminist soapbox because I have an opinion different from yours. :roll:

To say it again: I disagree with your opinion that they were positive characters. Also, seeing how you can understand how characters on shows like "The O.C." aren't positive portrayals of lesbian relationships, I'm more than a bit confused how you aren't seeing it here with this game.

Additionally, I was flabbergasted when you said "it's just a game." You aren't saying "Eastenders" or "The O.C."'s bad lesbian relationships are "just TV shows," in fact you're freely admitting that they suck pretty bad. So what is the difference?

Besides, I don't care if you like looking at gay girls (hey, I do too :P), but it bothers me when you have no problem with lesbians being portrayed merely as sex objects for males to ogle. As I said before, I think it's important to strive for more, including a real, dynamic relationship in the our movies/games/etc. It helps to bridge the gap so narrow-minded straight people can see that we love too, and we don't just make out for attention. In the game, this could have been done in the cut scenes... a little TLC here or there, some affection maybe, and not just gratuitous lesbian strip teases and make out sessions with no real development of their relationship. These behaviours by the characters only help to reinforce the "lesbians are male entertainment" stereotypes.

If you are interpreting what I have said here so far as angry feminist ranting or anything beyond that, well you don't know me. I like a good debate, that's all, and when someone stands up and says that it doesn't matter how lesbians are portrayed as long as they're there for you to look at, well, I need to debate that because I strongly disagree. :P

I'm sorry if this has read as anger; I am only frustrated because I do not feel that you are understanding my side of the debate (also a lot of my questions have gone unanswered, but whatever :roll: ).

Listen, just because you are a bigwig around here does not mean I have to agree with you. You might be able to bully other people into submission but not me. If you are too stupid not to realize that "Fear effect" is just a game, then there is not much I can do is there?

Btw less of the verbalize next time, quantity is no substitute for quality.

Okay, I don't know what else you expect me to do. [b:43d3eca15d]I'm not asking you to agree with me[/b:43d3eca15d]. I thought we were discussing the portrayal of lesbians in the game.

You thought the game was a positive portrayal of lesbians and I disagreed. I've asked you numerous times to tell me why *points up to millions of unanswered questions* and you haven't answered. All you can talk about is how I am on a power trip. That accomplishes nothing.

As I said before [b:43d3eca15d] I'm sorry you are reading my attempt to debate this topic as a power trip[/b:43d3eca15d]. I don't know what else you expect me to do. I apologised. I had another moderator (LesKidd) review what I've written to make sure I'm not being inappropriate. I've brought up points of debate and they have been ignored time and again. I will list them at the end of this post so you can continue to ignore them.

This is not an "Insult Koma" thread; it is a thread to discuss lesbian video games. If you cannot respond to this topic, please do not bother posting in this thread.

As for the length of my post, well I'm sorry. I was under the mistaken impression that if I repeated myself for the 10th time you might actually read what I was saying. Obviously this is not the case, since I admitted (again) that I was trying to have a discussion with you about the game: positive vs. negative portrayal of lesbians. Funny how if you read through the posts I talk about that every single time, and you don't.

Questions I Have Asked and Am Awaiting An Answer For:

*Why do you think homophobia exists? (My opinion: Because gay relationships are not taken as seriously as straight relationships)

*I'm not asking for a complete relationship, but are you seriously saying that lesbian exploitation is a GOOD thing, and we should excuse it 'cause "hey, it's just a game"? (My opinion: I'm not asking men to stop liking girl-on-girl action... but I am asking that they understand that lesbians don't exist solely for them to masturbate to)

*You aren't saying "Eastenders" or "The O.C."'s bad lesbian relationships are "just TV shows," in fact you're freely admitting that they suck pretty bad. So what is the difference? (Clarification: you said, "It's just a game" and what is the difference between the two?)

*Do you seriously believe that it's harmless to have lesbians looked upon only as porn and jokes?

*REPEAT: Seeing how you can understand how characters on shows like "The O.C." aren't positive portrayals of lesbian relationships, I'm more than a bit confused how you aren't seeing it here with this game.

lk_ie - this is a warning, no personal attacks are allowed here on afterellen.
all members are equals here and should be treated with respect. as you said, quality over quantity, so i'll quote your posts that ARE OFFENSIVE. and i'll be short, nobody is a bully or on a powertrip, think what you will, koma is attempting to have a discussion with you. however you are not getting the idea and leaping to conclusions. this would be where a few [b:f7bb0f2a46]more[/b:f7bb0f2a46] words will help.
i repeat: this is not a power trip, i am not bullying you, and i'm not telling you to take your ball anywhere, and i'm not huffing, breathing quite normally, in fact.

[quote:f7bb0f2a46="lk_ie"]Well take your ball with you then! If you are off in a huff I don't care. I am not the one who is being naive here, you are.[/quote:f7bb0f2a46]

'take your ball with you' - OFFENSIVE, and you didn't say WHY you think koma is being naive.
and then:
[quote:f7bb0f2a46="lk_ie"]Listen, just because you are a bigwig around here does not mean I have to agree with you. You might be able to bully other people into submission but not me. If you are too stupid not to realize that "Fear effect" is just a game, then there is not much I can do is there?

Btw less of the verbalize next time, quantity is no substitute for quality.[/quote:f7bb0f2a46]

'if you are too stupid not to realize' - OFFENSIVE

nobody here is a bigwig, with the exception of sarah warn. koma was not bullying, you seem to have misinterpreted her posts. you're right, you don't have to agree with koma, but you're NOT explaining yourself either. i would like to see you answer koma's questions as stated in her most recent post. in fact, i WANT you to answer them before we continue.

[quote:f7bb0f2a46="lk_ie"]
Beside it would be the height of hypocrisy for me to slag off men for liking hot girls together, as I love watching hot girls together myself. :wink:[/quote:f7bb0f2a46]
[quote:f7bb0f2a46="lk_ie"]What the hell are you talking about now?
Gay girls are always going to be viewed as sexy together(especially by me) The media is far from perfect in it's handling of lesbian relationships(hang your heads in shame "Eastenders" & "O.C") but I would rather enjoy anything fun or sexy involving girls together, even if it is not PC, rather than have my consciousness raised by you(not that it needs raising)[/quote:f7bb0f2a46]
your repeated comparison of 'it's ok for men to want to watch gay girls being together since i love watching hot girls together myself' is not a fair comparison. to me an appropriate comparison would be if lesbians like watching hot gay men getting together just for the sake of it.

The sad thing is, I really do wanna know why she feels the way she does ("Girls Gone Wild" is a positive lesbian portrayal too I assume?). :dunno: I guess we'll never know. :(

Day-um! I wish I woulda tuned in to this thread sooner! *starts a "Holy Sh!t" chant*.. LOL.

I won't say anything more for now for fear of being called a bigwig.. LOL. :lol:

*gets both lk_ie and Koma a cool refreshing drink* :)

:lmao: Damn, that was funny. I wish I'd have joined in sooner, I'd have defended yr ass and shouted at her for dismissing gay rights/feminism/you/common sense/politeness/al of the above. :alice-bitch: Once again I am impressed at your rhetorical skills, Ms. Koma.

I would have thought that they were eye candy for girls and guys. At least they did not die, turn pyscho, or were "cured" unlike certain TV programs I could mention. :wink:

Considering the demographic that most video games are aimed towards, it's more likely that they were eye candy for the guys, not girls (with the exception of lesbians, I don't know of many straight girls who would pay to watch two women undress and make out).

Even if we're assuming that every lesbian in the world played that game, they would still only make up maybe 3-4% (based on population). Therefore, I don't think the game was made for them; rather, it was made for the typical straight male fantasy.

Okay, they didn't die, and they were heroes rather than villains. But they still supported the stereotype that lesbians must be stereotypically attractive AND that they only exist for the pleasure of men watching girl-on-girl action. The couple in the game had no real relationship development, whereas in "The Sims" they do (dating, marriage, family, etc.).

I really don't consider it a step forward to have lesbians in a game just for the enjoyment of men. I will admit that it could have been [i:b531b0db70]worse[/i:b531b0db70], but that game was a far cry from positive visibility IMHO. Actually it makes me think of the Russian pop duo T.a.T.u., and every time some guys finds out you're a lesbian with a girlfriend and asks "can I watch?", we have things like "Fear Effect" to thank for it.

I think you are taking things a little bit too seriously. I think men have, and always will love the idea of girls making out with each other, as indeed most women do too :wink: I would rather get the "Can I join in?" reaction than hostile homophobia. I mean if you were to carry your logic through, no gay-girls would sleep with any other girls just in case some guy enjoyed the idea!

But I think you're missing the point, because based on your logic there are no lesbian relationships, and girls ONLY make out to please guys. That's my point: lesbian [i:10dae58749]relationships[/i:10dae58749] aren't taken seriously. That's pretty important, because it's as bad as blatant homophobia... people either don't respect you or your relationship or they deny its existence totally.

Following my logic, lesbians would sleep with other women because they loved them or were in a relationship with them, not because men were watching.

Just because men will "always enjoy it" doesn't mean that's all we should strive to be! And as far as taking it too seriously *looks around AfterEllen* we have to, because lesbian visibility sucks. That's why this site is here.

[quote:656c86d3d8="koma"]But I think you're missing the point, because based on your logic there are no lesbian relationships, and girls ONLY make out to please guys. That's my point: lesbian [i:656c86d3d8]relationships[/i:656c86d3d8] aren't taken seriously. That's pretty important, because it's as bad as blatant homophobia... people either don't respect you or your relationship or they deny its existence totally.

Following my logic, lesbians would sleep with other women because they loved them or were in a relationship with them, not because men were watching.

Just because men will "always enjoy it" doesn't mean that's all we should strive to be! And as far as taking it too seriously *looks around AfterEllen* we have to, because lesbian visibility sucks. That's why this site is here.[/quote:656c86d3d8]

I think you are have too much feminist dogma there and not enough common sense! This is a video game, they can hardly cram in a complete relationship can they? Beside it would be the height of hypocrisy for me to slag off men for liking hot girls together, as I love watching hot girls together myself. :wink:

I'm not asking for a complete relationship, but are you seriously saying that lesbian exploitation is a GOOD thing, and we should excuse it 'cause "hey, it's just a game"? Come on. :roll: I'm not asking men to stop liking girl-on-girl action... but I am asking that they understand that lesbians don't exist solely for them to masturbate to.

Why do you think homophobia exists btw? Because gay relationships are not taken as seriously as straight relationships, pure and simple. That has nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with human decency.

If you seriously believe in what you've written (i.e. that it's harmless to have lesbians looked upon only as porn and jokes) then you are a.) EXTREMELY naive, and b.) didn't bother to read anything I said here, or anything that has ever been written on AfterEllen.com for that matter. Until you get over both of these issues, I have nothing more to say to your simple-minded, Utopian/idealistic view of the world.

Well take your ball with you then! If you are off in a huff I don't care. I am not the one who is being naive here, you are.

I'm not in a huff at all, I am just at a loss for words. You are here on a lesbian visibility website/forum and your attitude is that there's nothing wrong with lesbian visibility. :dunno:

It's very hard to debate with people who refuse to acknowledge an issue, wouldn't you say?