I guess CNN doesn't care about dems, reps, and inds anymore.

It's straight men and women... Oh, well. Apparently, dudes like McCain and women like Obama... good grief.

I liked this format better than the others.

McCain seems to be the King of the Straw Man. Constantly arguing about policies that Obama has repeatedly said he doesn't support. It's getting annoying.

I will give it to McCain. "if you wanted to run against Bush, you should have ran four years ago." Yeah, McCain's not Bush, he says he's different but I haven't seen the difference. Different man, same policies.

What everyone was waiting for... bringing up the dirt. Obama... more negative ads in history... gotta fact check that.  After liberals were almost begging Obama to go after McCain...

Wow, if you're running mate became president. Guess I'd vote for Biden over Palin.

I love the use 'em or lose 'em idea for oil leases. We can drill off-shore now. So why aren't the oil companies using the off-shore leases they already have?

So McCain doesn't seem to care about people dying in Columbia, as long as America profits... nice.

Hockey moms, Joe six pack. Now it's Joe the plumber... ugh.  

Straw Man McCain again with the phantom fine.

I really like how Obama brought up the idea that rights shouldn't be subject to popular vote.
The Ninth Amendment says that rights are retained by the people; not voted on by the people. I've heard some conservatives say that the people should determine what rights others should have. It's an assumption that's almost as ridiculous as the idea that if it's not a constitutional right then it's subject to interpretation. This is totally out of line with the ideas of the founding fathers.
As far as I'm concerned a right Right is that which is due every citizen of the U.S. by virtue of just claim, fair principle and legal guarantee. A right can only be lost through due process of law.

I don't have a problem with Obama voting present when there's a bill that sounds good but is missing some integral component.

I'm actually still out on the voucher deal. Need to do more research.

Truth be told, nothing said tonight was going to change my mind about who I was going to vote for...but the debates do a lot to reassure me about Obama. He is thoughtful and insightful and has the temperment that is needed to guide this country--I am more certain of those facts after tonight's debate than I have ever been. 

And, spending so much of my time engaged in politics, I don't ever expect to be surprised by anything that's said...but tonight when John McCain dismissed the health of the mother as a legitimate exception to the partial birth ban, I was astounded. Are you serious? The Supreme Court and voters in some of the most conservative states in the union won't pass anti-abortion legislation without a health exception. What the hell...

Obama won tonight by a comfortable margin. I wonder sometimes if McCain knows that he's on television--I mean, I think he competes evenly in every debate with Obama on policy but always loses tremendous ground on style and temperment. 

Interesting sidenote about vouchers in Washington, DC: there's a high demand for the vouchers, but in the final analysis, having your student at a charter school in DC versus a public school in DC makes little to no difference in the academic performance of the student. 

-----
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly." - MLK

In the beginning I thought McCain was good at simplifying the issues and putting a lot of energy into his responses, but as time went by he just seemed to be frustrated, angry and prone to repeat lies.

Obama was even-tempered throughout and in the face of scurrilous attacks of paling around with a terrorist, he kept bringing the discussion back to the economic crisis we are facing.  There were times when I got sick and tired of McCain's personal attacks, but Obama addressed the attacks with facts.  He finallly pointed out that the board on which he served with Ayers also had some prominent Republicans, at least one who had served as a Reagan appointee.  I had to keep reminding myself that Obama's intellectual coolness has enabled him to handle enormous odds and hostility during the entire campaign.  He is in a word what I think of as presidential in a crisis.

I thought Bob Scheiffer did an excellent job, the best yet in moderating a real debate.  He was not intimidated by the setting or the candidates in any way, shape or form.

McCain really blew the abortion question in more than one way.  He equivocated on taking a stance against Roe v. Wade, saying it was up to the states.  I don't think that made any points with the evangelicals, unless they are willing to overlook that.  When he later dismissed the life of the mother as an anti-abortion exception as a silly "health" issue, that was certainly a mistake with pro-choice voters.  I think McCain has some serious issues with women in general.  Obama was clear on this question and did a good job of tieing it in with sex education and healthcare.

Now let's just have the freakin election.

I have a question...is everyone on the same page as to what constitutes a "negative ad"? Because it seems like in the counting of Obama's negative ads McCain's including ads that attack McCain's proposed policies. That's not really what I consider a negative ad. Negative ads to me attack character and try to make the other candidate seem like a bad person. If you have a difference on the issues, then that's fair game and really what campaigns should be about in the first place.

School vouchers are special to me, because it's the first issue I remember having an opinion on. I wasn't old enough to vote, but I had an opinion on it. LOL 16 years later, I still think they're a terrible idea. G.H. Bush was all about the vouchers and I just couldn't see private schools popping up in rural or poor areas. Private schools, which are fine and capitalistic and all that, are in the business of making money and have no reason to build in poor neighborhoods and rural areas unless they are religious schools. So then you have tax payer money going to private and often religious schools and taking that money away from public schools. The vouchers just end up being used by people who can already afford private schools anyway, and the transportation to get their kids there. It might work in high density populations, and thus more kids to compete over, and that have public transportation that kids could take to schools outside their neighborhood. But, it's not going to work everywhere.

School vouchers won't go over well in the south either, as this system was once used to get around desegregation. In some cases, private schools in the south are just about being white only schools. And that's their right if parents wanna do that, but it should not be funded by tax payers.

"Health of the mother" is an excuse? McCain really needs to stop hanging around his wing-nuts...or Palin. Seriously. Reasonable pro-life people make exceptions for the health of the mother, and I think that's a majority of pro-life supporters. 

Sorry Joe Plumber, I don't know how many people are going to relate to making $250k a year. I think McCain actually thinks that's what middle class is...and compared to him, it is.

I thought it very interesting that McCain went on and on about not putting potential Supreme Court justices through a litmus test, and not judging them by ideologies, but by qualifications.

Did anyone else notice that he said, "I do not believe that someone who has supported Roe v Wade would be part of those qualifications."

Isn't that requiring them to adhere to McCain's ideology?

Overall, I was pretty happy with the debate. Again, McCain gave the impression of being an angry old man while Obama maintained an appearance of being cool and collected. Obama outlined specific plans for his time in the White House, while McCain skimmed over his own/criticized Obama's.

The thing that worries me most about Obama's side of the debate is that he publically stated his position on abortion rights. This is such a divisive issue in our country which may have lost him some points.

The only other thing was that he was just too passive. I would've liked to see him call McCain on more of the falsehoods that are being used against him in this race. I realize there was a certain strategy in play, but this approach still could have remained consistant with his overall tone in the debate if it had been done with factualism rather than agression.

Alright, now for a pop culture reference: did anyone watching the debate think of the TV show 24? David Palmer, to me, is what I hope Obama could be, and Charles Logan is what McCain looks like right now. (Except that Logan's wife was hotter and gay-subtextier.)

Who looks more like a presidential candidate? Definitely not McCain. Seriously, what is he trying to do.

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • After the debate.

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • With his wife Cindy.

How come McCain wasn't wearing the US flag pin? That's not very patriotic.

• • • • • • • • • • • • • •

McCain slip ups on road to White House.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/10/16/1223750232753.html

I watched a bit of it. But, I know who Im voting for (which usually doesnt stop me). I just got so mad at the shit talk. Debates are about your plans not one uping your opponent. But, on the other hand I saw the "what makes your vp qualified" question and I wish Obama would have pointed out Palins inablities (sp?). But Maybe that was good? I think Obama was able to properly defend himself without getting aggrevated. 
Remember all the Joe Plumber talk?: this video will be awesome:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/39458/msnbc-decision-08-obama-talks-with-joe-the-plumber

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice anywhere.
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.
MLK

While i'm deffinetly voting for Obama and cannot stand McCain, I feel the need to say that wearing a pin doesn't make you any more patriotic than someone who doesn't wear one.

Also, being patriotic is not about if you agree or disagree with war. It's about your ideas and your ability to question and challenge your own government in order to make things better for your country. Well those are my beliefs.

Anyway I did think Obama did a great job at the debate. He speaks very well and seems to actually care. McCain seems very angry and his policies will not help us.

Haha that first picture is so wack, I must have missed seeing that happen. Did he trip or something?

Just as you did not want me to assume things about your life, how would you know about mine or those of average African Americans?  I am telling you it is the norm in my life.  It is what I have experienced over and over, and it is what Black people I know have experienced throughout their lives.

The United States was founded on White Supremacy. I said this before and you did not address it and I will say it again even if you choose not to address it again.  The creation of the U.S. came from the near extermination of the indigenous peoples.  The wealth of the U.S. began with the institutionalization of race based slavery.  The creation of the American caste system was based on White supremacy and while it has altered, it is still quite prevalent. 

Okay and what does that have to do with Obama in this campaign?

McCain had more political experience than George W. Bush in 2000.  How do you reconcile being pro-life with being, pro-death, pro-war and anti-gun control?  Pregnant women and their unborn babies get killed when someone drops bombs on them or shoots them.  If life is sacred at conception, then how can you put someone to death?  I'm not asking you specifically, rather the Republican party's stated moral beliefs seem contradictory on a fundamental level to me.

The Republican party has not been fiscally conservative since before Jimmy Carter in the 1970's. It was under Ronald Reagan, George Bush Sr. and Jr. that the national debt and deficit rose.  It was under Democratic Bill Clinton that the U.S. had a surplus and a booming economy.  It was also Ronald Reagan who created the huge increase in homelessness and of homeless veterans no less.

Singlely any one of these issues does not hold water as to McCain's support.  Together the contradictions between the stated reasons for support and outcomes of Republican policy are staggering. 

Hope I can share.  I don't have much faith in this regard.

What Martin expressed came from a place of collective generational experience.  I do believe people can change, but they have to make a conscious effort to do so.

I did not say that living as a Black person would end White supremacy and that was not my point.  You rather glibbly dismissed the reality of White supremacy and its prevalence in the lives of African Americans.  You might wish it away, but you cannot erase the experiences I have had nor those of other African Americans.  I did not try to invalidate your life experiences, so please do not try to invalidate mine.  You have not walked in my shoes.  The American caste system has existed for hundreds of years and it is quite real.  Turning a blind eye to the reality of White supremacy will not make it go away.

I'm glad that you can relate to Obama as a human being.  What I said was a response to your dismissal of White supremacy.  It was not a strategy.  Whether you meant it or not, what you said was disrespectful of the entire African American experience in this country.  Again if you tell me that the things I've experienced did not really happen because they make you uncomfortable, then I am going to tell you you have not walked in my shoes.

I also have people in my family who hold a variety of bigotries.  Some of those bigotries are against people who are outside of the family and some are aimed at those within.  From time to time I examine my own views and ignorance about various things.  I believe there will always be something new to learn for as long as I live.

My take on that is somewhat different.  From experience I know there will be battles I will win and battles I will lose in the short-term.  When I look at those who went before me and experienced difficulties that I can only imagine, I know that the fruits of our actions may not been seen for a long time.  Still it is worth the attempt however uncomfortable that may be.

While it may not be virulent, there is clearly a racial divide between you and me.  It does not make me feel hopeless or defeated.  It is just the current reality.  For the generations to come, I do have hope, but a better life will not come without some confrontation.

Have you ever watched two people debate an issue and realized they actually agreed on the issue and really weren't arguing about the same thing?

I think you both might want to start from scratch.

The term 'white supremacy' doesn't sit well with a lot of people; kind of like discrimination.    When you say 'white supremacy', people envision neo-nazis, skinheads, KKK members, and the like.   When you use the term, some automatically become defensive because they don't want to be associated with that just by virtue of being white.  When one party becomes defensive, the value of the discussion is diminished.

zephyr, I assume you are using the term 'white supremacy' the same way I understand 'white privilege'

As I understand it, white privilege is not about how you (as a white person) treat people of other races; it's about how people of your race treat you in comparison to other races.  It's not something you do, it's something you experience.

GrrrlRomeo gave a perfect example of white privilege.

I've lived in very racially divided areas as well as very white areas that are divided on economic class. It's a very different experience...total culture shock going from one to the other. When I moved from New Hampshire to Alabama when I was a kid I went from being an inferior poor kid to being one of the superior white kids...and it made me very uncomfortable because I couldn't relate to the white kids and the black kids didn't want to talk to me. And then I moved back to NH and instantly went back to being a poor kid.

This is how white privilege works.  When you are a poor white person among white people, you are judged by your financial status.   When you are a poor white person among whites and blacks, your race gives you a sort of social boost. 

Some think that white privilege is a fringe concept because they don't realize how subtle it is.  It's about status;  Your place in society.  It doesn't always present itself in the form of violence or racist comments.  It's a silent understanding that taints the most basic interactions.  It's the understanding that people tend to favor those with similar backgrounds; and very often that means racial background.

It's ironic because I can go around and call Obama a white man and my statement would be just as valid as those who call him a black man.  But, because his skin is a little darker...

Race is a factor in this election.  I don't think we'll ever really know how much unless we take a poll after the election.  If McCain wins, I doubt you could point to any one clear reason why he won.  Maybe it's race, Maybe it's because he has a female running mate, maybe it's because he wants victory in Iraq, maybe it's because he wants to protect business owners, maybe it's because of abortion... who knows.  

If Obama does get elected, then we will know that we have evolved... yet, we still have a ways to go.  Which is fine.  We will always be progressing.

I don't have that much faith in people.  I think creating fear, no matter how irrational or fabricated, works.   The real battle cry is, "He's not like us".  And sadly, I think that works.

I think the most important thing to emphasis is awareness.   It's not about changing your behavior, it's about being aware of the behavior of others. To be aware of how others treat you in relation to how they treat others; and to know why they are doing it.