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News, Reviews & Commentary on Lesbian and Bisexual women in Entertainment and the Media

Is Marriage a Right?

I know the overwhelming response to that question is 'duh'.  But, where is the proof?

I know there are some who think that marriage is not a right and that gay people are taking it too far.  We should be satisfied with civil unions.

First, Civil unions and domestic partnerships are only valid within a state.  There are federal privileges, protections, and benefits that are  denied to people who are not married.  And thanks to the DOMA, other states do not have to recognize civil unions or domestic partnerships.

Second, to make this first post short, I will be giving evidence supporting marriage as a right and also protected under the fourteenth amendment.

Anyone else who has evidence, please contribute. It's good to have ammunition when talking to those who disagree.

Anyone who disagrees, feel free to dissent.


jackedup77's picture

Perez v. Sharp (California,1948)

full text opinion of case (pdf)

This case overturned the ban on interracial marriage in California

The court stated:

Marriage is thus something more than a civil contract subject to regulation by the state; it is a fundamental right of free men.

The right to marry is as fundamental as the right to send one’s child to a particular school or the right to have offspring. Indeed, “We are dealing here with legislation which involves one of the basic civil rights of man. Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race.” (Skinner v. Oklahoma, supra, at p. 541.) Legislation infringing such rights must be based upon more than prejudice and must be free from oppressive discrimination to comply with the constitutional requirements of due process and equal protection of the laws. 

Since the right to marry is the right to join in marriage with the person of one’s choice, a statute that prohibits an individual from marrying a member of a race other than his own restricts the scope of his choice and thereby restricts his right to marry. It must therefore be determined whether the state can restrict that right on the basis of race alone without violating the equal protection of the laws clause of the United States Constitution.

The right to marry is the right of individuals, not of racial groups. The equal protection clause of the United States Constitution does not refer to rights of the Negro race, the Caucasian race, or any other race, but to the rights
of individuals. (State of Missouri ex rel. Gaines v. Canada, 305 U.S. 337, 351 [59 S.Ct. 232, 83 L.Ed. 208]; McCabe v. Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Ry. Co., 235 U.S. 151, 161-162 [35 S.Ct. 69, 59 L.Ed. 169].)

The due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment protects an area of personal liberty not yet wholly delimited.

“While this Court has not attempted to define with exactness the liberty thus guaranteed, the term has received much consideration and some of the included things have been definitely stated. Without doubt, it denotes not merely freedom from bodily restraint, but also the right of the individual to contract, to engage in any of the common occupations of life, to acquire useful knowledge, to marry, establish a home and bring up children, to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience, and, generally, to enjoy those privileges long recognized at common law as essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.” (Italics added; Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390, 399 [43 S.Ct. 625, 67 L.Ed. 1042].)



Anonymous's picture

RE: Perez vs. Sharp..

I am imagining that same gender marriage to stand in for this case.

What would you state (or what would you want to be stated) in place of this statement: "...Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race."(Skinner v. Oklahoma, supra, at p. 541.)

To me, the statement above (esp. the word "procreation") is what is not allowing same gender marriage to occur in other states in America. 

*A Fact: In the state of Alabama, interracial marriage wasn't allowed until year 2000.

GrrrlRomeo's picture

Define Procreation

What does procreation mean today? There's the old fashioned way of course. But there is also adoption and artificial insemination. And it seems to me that regardless of the method, that child ought to have parents that can be legally bound to each other and to the child.

Also, if marriage is for procreation why do straight couples have the right to get married even if they have no plans to procreate or are unable to due to health reasons and turn to alternative methods. If they were barred from marriage it would clearly be discrimination.

And of course, marriage certainly isn't a requirement for procreation.

Anonymous's picture

RE: Define Procreation..

Exactly, GrrrlRomeo with your question about define procreation.

Many people(or it seems) view procreation as a man and woman creating a baby and having a family together. They do not see that a man and man(or woman and woman) could adopt, etc. Some people see it as a couple you have to be able to create a baby.

So my question is how do you explain in another way (to support same gender marriage) to people who see it that way?

*I can add, what about heterosexual couples who can not have children, couples who do not want children, etc. but still many people see it as you have to be able to create a baby. And with the couple not being able, probably a few people see it as the couple could have created a baby except they aren't able to.

jackedup77's picture

The Skinner case did say,

My Name Is Tara,
The Skinner case did say, "Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race." It did not implicitly state that procreation was a requirement for marriage. The Skinner case dealt with compulsory sterilization.  The ruling statement was to reiterate that people had a right to procreate. I think the judge added the marriage part in there because it was a given that people would marry before they procreated.
Anonymous's picture

RE: The Skinner case..

Thanks I did not know that.
jackedup77's picture

I knew someone would bring it up.

I asked myself the same question.  Then I noticed that there are plenty of straight married couples who don't have children.  Many of these couples cannot have children.  So, is their marriage valid?

Even according to catholic law, infertility is not grounds for annulment.

It should be noted that if a valid marriage is made on the wedding day later infidelity or a contraceptive will would not invalidate it. It is only when the will of either party in making the marriage contradicts the Plan of God from the beginning of marriage that it is invalid. The Church accepts every marriage as valid until proven otherwise, however (canon 1060).

AND, with modern technology, there is nothing stoping a gay family from procreating.  

Can we say that straight couples who use outside sperm donors or egg donors do not have a valid marriage?   No one would.

 

*As the article I posted below stated, the interracial marriage ban in Alabama was not enforced.  The law was nullified about 30 years ago.

Anonymous's picture

RE: I knew someone..

How can same gender marriage become valid? What can be stated to show same gender loving people who want to get married in other states that it isn't allowed that it's valid?

What allowed same gender marriage in Massachusetts and California? How can that information be helpful in trying to get marriage in other states?

jackedup77's picture

short answer

Well, I was hoping that by posting the decision in those two states, that question could be answered. Feel free to read the full decisions.

Long answer:

Most of those court decisions stated that marriage was a right to marry someone of your choice.  They didn't put any other qualifications on it.  

And All cases site the 14th amendment.  The argument is that denying same sex marriage, denies the right to due process and equal protection.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

wanderrerr's picture

"To me, the statement above

"To me, the statement above (esp. the word "procreation") is what is not allowing same gender marriage to occur in other states in America. "

 

I highly doubt that.  If this were the case, then these same states would/should be stopping those who don't want or are unable to procreate from getting married.  At the very least, they should doing more to encourage married couples to have children.

I don't think the opposition to gay marriage is about procreation.  I remeber reading a comment on a different site that concluded that it is more about selfishness, bigotry, or a combination of both. I personally wouldn't go that far but it is more believable to me than the notion that most gay marriage opponents do so out of some desire to foster procreation and preserve the human race. 

Anonymous's picture

RE: To me, the statement above..

I see that explanation as well, "selfishness, bigotry, or a combination of both". But there has to be more to it than that or procreation. If it is so simple for s.g marriage to possibly happen, why won't it be allowed in many other states? Marriage between individuals is their business so why is it made personal to others? With that marriage could become very open to other joinings, three people wanting to get married, etc.

So my question is how do you explain the exact statement for why same gender people could get married?

To me, this issue is very broad to make simple so far. The only way I think a possibly of marriage between the same genders being allowed, is asking every single individual in America who is a certain age like 16 or older. What is their view on marriage, do they think same gender people should be allowed to marry, etc?

jackedup77's picture

Let's look at the opposing arguments

Honestly, The only resistance against gay marriage is a religious one.  I've never heard a secular argument against gay marriage... OK I take it back. "

Homosexual relationships do nothing to serve the state interest of propagating society, so there is no reason to grant them the costly benefits of marriage.

 

This dude is basically using the same "marriage is for procreation" argument; except he's taking the religion out of it.   What this dude fails to realize is that the state's main interest is protecting our freedoms.  And that even if it is in the state's interest to propagate society; gay people still have the means to procreate.  Then the dude uses the slippery slope fallacy. And his proposal is still misaligned with the 14th amendment.  It doesn't matter what the interest of the state is, it matters that citizens have equal rights.  In closing, this guy is a tool.

The other argument is that gay marriage will undermine the institution of marriage.  

What they fail to realize is gay marriage is not a new thing. And, contemporary gay marriage can't do half the damage that divorce has done to marriage.  And there is no evidence to this claim.

Anonymous's picture

RE: Opposing argument..

(I am repeating what you all stated previously towards this secualr argument) What if the homosexual married couple have adopted children (or whatever), shouldn't they have the benefits of marriage (between a man and woman with children)?

That is why I say marriage is very broad and the explanations on why it is allowed mainly for heterosexuals in America.

 

wanderrerr's picture

I think the better question

In response to My Name is Tara, I think the better question is "why shouldn't same-sex marriage be allowed?" and thus far, no one has given me a satisfactory answer to that question.  If marriage is indeed a right, as all the cases cited here have indicated, there is no need to seek the permission of every single American before one can enter into a marriage.  You don't put up people's right to a vote.  Furthermore, if marriage is a right, the government should be able tlo demonstrate a compelling interest before they can abridge this right and I don't really see how they can satisfy this requirement.  As for the charge that same-sex marriage could lead to polygamy, the government can concievably demonstrate an interest in prohibiting that since they'd now have to extend certain benefits to 3 instead of 2 people, a task which could be exceedingly difficullt.  Besides, some hypothetical situation (which is already highly unlikely) should not be used as a basis to deny rights to a group of people.
jackedup77's picture

In re MARRIAGE CASES (California, 2008)

Text of the decision (pdf)

California supreme court review:

Accordingly, the legal issue we must resolve is not whether it would be constitutionally permissible under the California Constitution for the state to limit marriage only to opposite-sex couples while denying same-sex couples any opportunity to enter into an official relationship with all or virtually all of the same substantive attributes, but rather whether our state Constitution prohibits the state from establishing a statutory scheme in which both opposite-sex and same-sex couples are granted the right to enter into an
officially recognized family relationship that affords all of the significant legal
rights and obligations traditionally associated under state law with the institution of marriage, but under which the union of an opposite-sex couple is officially designated a “marriage” whereas the union of a same-sex couple is officially designated a “domestic partnership.”  The question we must address is whether, under these circumstances, the failure to designate the official relationship of same-sex couples as marriage violates the California Constitution.

First, we must determine the nature and scope of the “right to marry” — a
right that past cases establish as one of the fundamental constitutional rights
embodied in the California Constitution.  Although, as an historical matter, civil marriage and the rights associated with it traditionally have been afforded only to opposite-sex couples, this court’s landmark decision 60 years ago in Perez v.  Sharp (1948) 32 Cal.2d 7114 — which found that California’s statutory provisions prohibiting interracial marriages were inconsistent with the fundamental constitutional right to marry, notwithstanding the circumstance that statutory prohibitions on interracial marriage had existed since the founding of the state — makes clear that history alone is not invariably an appropriate guide for determining the meaning and scope of this fundamental constitutional guarantee. 
The decision in Perez, although rendered by a deeply divided court, is a judicial opinion whose legitimacy and constitutional soundness are by now universally recognized.

As discussed below, upon review of the numerous California decisions that
have examined the underlying bases and significance of the constitutional right to marry (and that illuminate why this right has been recognized as one of the basic, inalienable civil rights guaranteed to an individual by the California Constitution), we conclude that, under this state’s Constitution, the constitutionally based right to marry properly must be understood to encompass the core set of basic substantive legal rights and attributes traditionally associated with marriage that are so integral to an individual’s liberty and personal autonomy that they may not be eliminated or abrogated by the Legislature or by the electorate through the statutory initiative
process.  These core substantive rights include, most fundamentally, the
opportunity of an individual to establish — with the person with whom the
individual has chosen to share his or her life — an officially recognized and
protected family possessing mutual rights and responsibilities and entitled to the same respect and dignity accorded a union traditionally designated as marriage.  As past cases establish, the substantive right of two adults who share a loving relationship to join together to establish an officially recognized family of their own — and, if the couple chooses, to raise children within that family — constitutes a vitally important attribute of the fundamental interest in liberty and personal autonomy that the California Constitution secures to all persons for the benefit of both the individual and society.  

...an individual’s sexual orientation — like a person’s race or gender — does not constitute a legitimate basis upon which to deny or withhold legal rights.  We therefore conclude that in view of the substance and significance of the fundamental constitutional right to form a family relationship, the California Constitution properly must be interpreted to guarantee this basic civil right to all Californians, whether gay or heterosexual, and to same-sex couples as well as to opposite-sex couples.


The United States Supreme Court initially discussed the constitutional right to marry as an aspect of the fundamental substantive “liberty” protected by the due process clause of the federal Constitution (see Meyer v. Nebraska (1923) 262 U.S. 390, 399), but thereafter in Griswold v. Connecticut (1965) 381 U.S. 479 (Griswold), the federal high court additionally identified the
right to marry as a component of a “right of privacy” protected by the federal
Constitution.  (Griswold, at p. 486.)  With California’s adoption in 1972 of a
constitutional amendment explicitly adding “privacy” to the “inalienable ights” of all Californians protected by article I, section 1 of the California Constitution — an amendment whose history demonstrates that it was intended, among other purposes, to encompass the federal constitutional right of privacy, “particularly as it developed beginning with Griswold v. Connecticut[, supra,] 381 U.S. 479” (Hill v. National Collegiate Athletic Assn. (1994) 7 Cal.4th 1, 28) — the state constitutional right to marry, while presumably still embodied as a component of the liberty protected by the state due process clause,30 now also clearly falls within the reach of the constitutional protection afforded to an individual’s interest in personal autonomy by California’s explicit state constitutional privacy clause. 

Those are just a few excerpts.  I invite you all to read the entire decision since it's full of good stuff

wanderrerr's picture

My inclination is to say

My inclination is to say that marriage is a right but I guess it  depends on how one interprets the founding documents.  Granted, I can't claim to be a constitutional scholar or anything like that but marriage does fall into what would be considered a right in relation to these documents.  Besides, generally speaking, people  readily accept that heterosexuals have a right to enter into this contract (marriage).  The way I see it, the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment requires that these same protections be extended to others as well.  
jackedup77's picture

Goodridge vs. Dep. of Public Health (Mass., 2003)

text of decision

This is the Massachusetts decision stricking down the ban on gay marriage:

This court concluded that barring an individual from the protections, benefits, and obligations of civil marriage solely because that person would marry a person of the same sex violated the Massachusetts Constitution in that such a marriage ban did not meet the rational basis test for either due process or equal protection, where the Commonwealth failed to identify any constitutionally adequate reason for denying civil marriage to same-sex couples.

The Massachusetts Constitution is, if anything, more protective of individual liberty and equality than the Federal Constitution; it may demand broader protection for fundamental rights; and it is less tolerant of government intrusion into the protected spheres of private life.

Barred access to the protections, benefits, and obligations of civil marriage, a person who enters into an intimate, exclusive union with another of the same sex is arbitrarily deprived of membership in one of our community's most rewarding and cherished institutions. That exclusion is incompatible with the constitutional principles of respect for individual autonomy and equality under law.

See DeMatteo v. DeMatteo, 436 Mass. 18 , 31 (2002) ("Marriage is not a mere contract between two parties but a legal status from which certain rights and obligations arise"); Smith v. Smith, 171 Mass. 404 , 409 (1898)

The benefits accessible only by way of a marriage license are enormous, touching nearly every aspect of life and death. The department states that "hundreds of statutes" are related to marriage and to marital benefits. With no attempt to be comprehensive, we note that some of the statutory benefits conferred by the Legislature on those who enter into civil marriage include, as to property: joint Massachusetts income tax filing (G. L. c. 62C, s. 6); tenancy by the entirety (a form of ownership that provides certain protections against creditors and allows for the automatic descent of property to the surviving spouse without probate) (G. L. c. 184, s. 7); extension of the benefit of the homestead protection (securing up to $300,000 in equity from creditors) to one's spouse and children (G. L. c. 188, s. 1); automatic rights to inherit the property of a deceased spouse who does not leave a will (G. L. c. 190, s. 1); the rights of elective share and of dower (which allow surviving spouses certain property rights where the decedent spouse has not made adequate provision for the survivor in a will) (G. L. c. 191, 

s. 15, and G. L. c. 189); entitlement to wages owed to a deceased employee (G. L. c. 149, s. 178A [general] and G. L. c. 149, s. 178C [public employees]); eligibility to continue certain businesses of a deceased spouse (e.g., G. L. c. 112, s. 53 [dentist]); the right to share the medical policy of one's spouse (e.g., G. L. c. 175, s. 108, Second [a] [3] [defining insured's "dependent" to include one's spouse), see Connors v. Boston, 430 Mass. 31 , 43 (1999) (domestic partners of city employees not included within term "dependent" as used in G. L. c. 3213, s. 2]); thirty-nine week continuation of health coverage for the spouse of a person who is laid off or dies (e.g., G. L. c. 175, s. 110G); preferential options under the Commonwealth's pension system (see G. L. c. 32, s. 12 [2] ["Joint and Last Survivor Allowance"]); preferential benefits in the Commonwealth's medical program, MassHealth (e.g., 130 Code Mass. Regs. s. 515.012 [A], prohibiting placing lien on long-term care patient's former home if spouse still lives there); access to veterans' spousal benefits and preferences (e.g., G. L. c. 115, s. 1 [defining "dependents"] and G. L. c. 31, s. 26 [State employment] and s. 28 [municipal employees]); financial protections for spouses of certain Commonwealth employees (fire fighters, police officers, and prosecutors, among others) killed in the performance of duty (e.g., G. L. c. 32, s.s. 100-103); the equitable division of marital property on divorce (G. L. c. 208, s. 34); temporary and permanent alimony rights (G. L. c. 208, s.s. 17 and 34); the right to separate support on separation of the parties that does not result in divorce (G. L. c. 209, s. 32); and the right to bring claims for wrongful death and loss of consortium, and for funeral and burial expenses and punitive damages resulting from tort actions (G. L. c. 229, s.s. 1 and 2; G. L. c. 228, s. 1. See Feliciano v. Rosemar Silver Co., supra).

Exclusive marital benefits that are not directly tied to property rights include the presumptions of legitimacy and parentage of children born to a married couple (G. L. c. 209C, s. 6, and G. L. c. 46, s. 4B); and evidentiary rights, such as the prohibition against spouses testifying against one another about their private conversations, applicable in both civil and criminal cases (G. L. c. 233, s. 20). Other statutory benefits of a personal nature available only to married individuals include qualification for

bereavement or medical leave to care for individuals related by blood or marriage (G. L. c. 149, s. 52D); an automatic "family member" preference to make medical decisions for an incompetent or disabled spouse who does not have a contrary health care proxy, see Shine v. Vega, 429 Mass. 456 , 466 (1999); the application of predictable rules of child custody, visitation, support, and removal out-of-State when married parents divorce (e.g., G. L. c. 208, s. 19 [temporary custody], s. 20 [temporary support], s. 28 [custody and support on judgment of divorce], s. 30 [removal from Commonwealth], and s. 31 [shared custody plan]; priority rights to administer the estate of a deceased spouse who dies without a will, and the requirement that a surviving spouse must consent to the appointment of any other person as administrator (G. L. c. 38, s. 13 [disposition of body], and G. L. c. 113, s. 8 [anatomical gifts]); and the right to interment in the lot or tomb owned by one's deceased spouse (G. L. c. 114, s.s. 29-33).

Where a married couple has children, their children are also directly or indirectly, but no less auspiciously, the recipients of the special legal and economic protections obtained by civil marriage. Notwithstanding the Commonwealth's strong public policy to abolish legal distinctions between marital and nonmarital children in providing for the support and care of minors, see Department of Revenue v. Mason M., 439 Mass. 665 (2003); Woodward v. Commissioner of Social Sec., 435 Mass. 536 , 546 (2002), the fact remains that marital children reap a measure of family stability and economic security based on their parents' legally privileged status that is largely inaccessible, or not as readily accessible, to nonmarital children. Some of these benefits are social, such as the enhanced approval that still attends the status of being a marital child. Others are material, such as the greater ease of access to family-based State and Federal benefits that attend the presumptions of one's parentage.

It is undoubtedly for these concrete reasons, as well as for its intimately personal significance, that civil marriage has long been termed a "civil right." See, e.g., Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1, 12 (1967) ("Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival"), quoting Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541 (1942); Milford v. Worcester, 7 Mass. 48 , 56 (1810) (referring to "civil rights incident to marriages"). See also Baehr v. Lewin, 74 Haw. 530, 561 (1993) (identifying marriage as "civil right[ ]"); Baker v. State, 170 Vt. 194, 242 (1999) (Johnson, J., concurring in part and dissenting in part) (same). The United States Supreme Court has described the right to marry as "of fundamental importance for all individuals" and as "part of the fundamental 'right of privacy' implicit in the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause." Zablocki v. Redhail, 434 U.S. 374, 384 (1978). See Loving v. Virginia, supra ("The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men")

 

Without the right to marry - or more properly, the right to choose to marry - one is excluded from the full range of human experience and denied full protection of the laws for one's "avowed commitment to an intimate and lasting human relationship." Baker v. State, supra at 229. Because civil marriage is central to the lives of individuals and the welfare of the community, our laws assiduously protect the individual's right to marry against undue government incursion. Laws may not "interfere directly and substantially with the right to marry." Zablocki v. Redhail, supra at 387. See Perez v. Sharp, 32 Cal. 2d 711, 714 (1948) ("There can be no prohibition of marriage except for an important social objective and reasonable means").

I purposely added the text that named various rights that are given to married couples.  

 

jackedup77's picture

what am I trying to prove

with all these posts?

That each case set precedence declaring marriage as a right (the right to join in marriage with the person of one’s choice) protected under the 14th amendment.

GrrrlRomeo's picture

Loving v. Virgina (U.S. Supreme Court 1967)

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.

Mildred Loving released this in 2007 on the 40th Anniversary of the Loving v. Virginia decision:

Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don't think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the "wrong kind of person" for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people's religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people's civil rights.

I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard's and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That's what Loving, and loving, are all about.

jackedup77's picture

LOVING v. VIRGINIA (1967)

full text of opinion

damn, you beat me to it.  Oh well, here's a link to the case anyway

 

jackedup77's picture

Federal constitution vs. state constitution

My concern is with states making amendments to their constitution to only recognize marriage only between a man and a woman.

Can a state constitutional amendment be overturned by the Federal Supreme Court?  I'm pretty sure it can but I can't find any examples.

I came across this CNN article stating that South Carolina voted to remove its constitutional ban on interracial marriage in 1998!  Apparently, the ban that was inacted in 1895 was not enforced.  The legislators wouldn't allow voters to decide to remove it and a poll said that only two-thirds of voters wanted to remove the ban.

Alabama was the last to repeal their ban in 2000.  CNN article

I know people don't like it when gay marriage is compared to interracial marriage; but, it all looks very familiar

GrrrlRomeo's picture

Yes, Fed overrules state

Loving v. Virginia made anti-miscenegation laws unconstitutional. While some states kept it on their books, they were unenforcable because of the Supreme Court decision.

The same is true for Lawrence V. Texas where the Supreme Court decided that Texas' sodomy law which made gay sex illegal was unconstitutional. They decided that consensual sex was protected by the 14th Amendment. And in doing so made all state sodomy laws unenforcable.

Some states even maintain segregation laws on the books even though it can't be enforced since segregation is illegal according to the federal government.

The recent Supreme Court's decision the interpretation of the 2nd amendment has also overturned state and local laws regarding gun control.

wanderrerr's picture

I looked and couldn't find

I looked and couldn't find an example either but I'm quite certain that the Supreme Court of the U.S can overturn a state constitutional amendement if they found it to be in conflict with the U.S constitution.  I'm guessing that the reason that the ban remained on the books despite such laws having been found unconstitutional is that no one really challenged it since it wasn't enforced.
GrrrlRomeo's picture

It's in the name of the court case

Loving v. Virginia, Lawrence v. Texas. That's the whole point of the Supreme Court cases...a party challenging a state law as unconstitutional under federal law. When the Supreme Court decides against the state, similar laws become unenforcable in all states.

Checkas's picture

A law allowing gays to marry

would take precedence to any state constitutional ban. Also, a supreme court ruling would do the trick as well.

For example, the 24th amendment that barred poll taxes. Also the 18th and 21st amendment, when ratified took precedence over any state laws. Also, roe v wade made it legal for women to have abortions and doctors to administer them (free from fear of legal ramifications). And in Miranda v Arizona we had the right to know our rights so we don't incriminate ourselves. However, this has recently been undermind due to a little thing called the Patriot Act (and the right of habeas corpus). Though, a constitutional ban on gay marriage would make it illeagal in all states regardless.

The supreme court can overrule a state consitutional ban, however a state court cannot. For example, Torcaso v Watkins which declared that "religious tests" in order to hold office that are still in many a state's consitution are void based on the first amendment of the Constitution.

So if we get the Supreme court to rule that defineing mariage as between a man and a woman is unconstitutional the definitions thereof in states constitutions would be null and void.

Anonymous's picture

RE: A law allowing..

Thanks Checkas for the information.

And thanks jackedup77 and others for information as well.

wanderrerr's picture

  "A law allowing gays to

 

"A law allowing gays to marry would take precedence to any state constitutional ban."

 

I think this is correct unless the Supreme Court finds the such a law to be in violation of states' rights and the constitution.  I guess what I am saying is that it is possible for the national legislature to enact a statute that would recognize same-sex marriages and such a law could still be invalidated if a state were to sue the federal government and SCOTUS sided with the state.

jackedup77's picture

I gotta put this in

I gotta put this in perspective by analogy.

That's like saying:

The Supreme Court overruled the ban on interracial marriage with Loving v Virginia.  But, Alabama could come back and sue the federal govt. causing the Supreme Court to go back on it's earlier decision.

I don't think it works that way.  Unless you've got an example

wanderrerr's picture

You've misunderstood me. 

You've misunderstood me.  I am not addressing a SCOTUS decision, that would be binding unless the federal legislature enacts an amendment.  I am talking about a law (statute) enacted by the federal legislature.  If a state feels that the federal government has overstepped their bounds in creating a law that sufficiently affects it, the state can indeed sue the federal government in the Supreme Court.  If SCOTUS were to side with the state, the federal statute is null and void and the only way the federal government can overrule the Court is if federal legislature goes back and passes a constitutional amendment.

For an example, see United States v. Lopez (1995)

http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/93-1260.ZO.html

jackedup77's picture

Gotcha

Yeah, I'm thinking the ban on gay marriage HAS to go the way of the ban on interracial marriage. 

The only way we can be through with this is to have the Supreme Court declare the ban on gay marriage unconstitutional.

wanderrerr's picture

Looks like we're gonna have

Looks like we're gonna have to wait a bit longer then.  Unless there's a few Justice Souters sitting on that Court, I'm not very optimistic.

I can't believe I'm still awake, going to bed now.  Goodnight everyone.

wanderrerr's picture

beat me to it

beat me to it
jackedup77's picture

Isn't the DOMA in violation of the Constitution?

DOMA states:

  1. No state (or other political subdivision within the United States) need treat a relationship between persons of the same sex as a marriage, even if the relationship is considered a marriage in another state.
  2. The Federal Government may not treat same-sex relationships as marriages for any purpose, even if concluded or recognized by one of the states.

 

Article IV, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution states:

Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

It seems like a flagrant violation to me.  How did they get away with it?  I've seen that there have been appeals made to the Supreme Court but the court refuses to review them.

Checkas's picture

It isn't because it doesn't

It isn't because it doesn't limit any state legislation, only the federal government recognizing same-sex couples the rights granted in marriage. The second clause of Article 4 section 1 allows the US government to claim certain amenities to states, such as the age of consent, the legal drinking age, and apparently the right for gays to marry. And historically, this has been interpreted by the supreme court to mean little more than nothing, giving states the rights to enforce their laws, rulings, and decisions that do not directly oppose the constitution.

It would seem that Obama, who claims that he would give federally employed same-sex couples domestic partner benefits would be refuteing DOMA.

 

jackedup77's picture

yup

I see that 'full faith and credit' was the reason behind creating DOMA in the first place.  With DOMA, congress exercised their power to, by general Laws, prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records, and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

bastards

GrrrlRomeo's picture

Obama and DOMA

Well yeah, he's always wanted to repeal DOMA. If he's successful in that, then it would open the door to gays challenging states. I think that's the plan.
wanderrerr's picture

I agree that it violates the

I agree that it violates the full faith and credit clause.  One of my political science professors thinks it was perfectly constitutional though because according to him, regulating marriage falls within the states' police powers (10th amendment I think).  Personally, I'm glad that the Supreme Court has refused to review challenges to DOMA so far.  I'm almost certain that we wouldn't get a favorable outcome with the current make up of the court and that would probably be a huge setback.
Anonymous's picture

Just thought of something...

I am using the Loving vs. Virginia case, the quoted statement "Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival...." to explain how s.g marriage can be explained (possibly).

The word existence, could sums up how individuals (no matter what sexual orientation) need comfort, love, support, etc from another person if they choose to have it. Like with babies being born, contact has to be the main factor or the baby will not survive for long. Humans can find contact through other humans (friends, family, significant others..), animals (pets...), etc. but it has to be there.

The word survival, adds to the strength of contact between humans. Without it, humans will not survive no matter what sexual orientation.

I apologize jackedup77 for not answering your question "is marriage a right?". I am in my own little world right now about the question I have on this issue. I am really interested in this topic right now. Thanks for bringing it up. 

jackedup77's picture

No worries

I created this thread hoping we can all work out our questions together.
cylonangel's picture

Was that why you created it?

It seemed from your introduction that you were looking for like-minded people so that you could collect all of your winning arguments to use later as "ammunition" - will the gun analogies never end? :) - against "those who disagree".

So, in my newly well-behaved manner, I have stayed away from getting in the mix. I may still be on probation.

:) 

jackedup77's picture

In my introduction, I also

In my introduction, I also stated that anyone who disagrees should feel free to dissent.

How can we come up with counterpoints if we don't know what the opposition is thinking?

Feel free to contribute.  I'm a big girl.  I don't care if you're well behaved or not; but, this ain't my site.  Just don't expect any sympathy if you get called out on your bad behavior.

I invite your insights.

cylonangel's picture

Ah, I see, well...

...right back atcha.

 

Happy Independence Day to all of the yanks on the boards!

 

Now let the debates continue.... 

 

Anonymous's picture

RE: Just thought..

To add, homosexual couples (married or not) can adopt children here in America like other couples and this will help American society by raising and teaching our children instead forgetting about them. Also wouldn't marriage between two people of the same gender who want to raise children help them get benefits? An example is both persons would become the parents of the child instead of just one parent.
"T. Obia"'s picture

I think in today's day and

I think in today's day and age (chuckles, that a terrible way to begin..), there seems to be this proliferating fear of marriage, due to high divorce rate -- possibly.

 Coming from a very close-knit family that values marriage between a man and a women quite highly, I have often taken issue with the idea of it, legal or religiously-inclined. I think that when it comes down to it, I would prefer people to focus seriously on civil unions as well as marriages, and having the proper allocated rights divided, so if I have a girlfriend/partner who is sick, I can have my insurance for her covered and so forth.

 I admit I do not know too much about this issue and I should. Indeed, I have learned a great deal simply from this thread, but I am no fan of marriage, (chuckles), sorry -- that's my own personal conflict to deal with. But if anyone feels they should and would like to, I support it full-heartedly, irregardless, well, that's pretty obvious. :)

jackedup77's picture

To be honest with you

I'm not a fan of marriage either.  I stated my opinion in another thread.

Come to think of it, this thread is in opposition to what I really think of marriage.

Be that as it may, I think it's a proven right. 

And those suckers who want to partake in it shouldn't be discriminated against.

Anonymous's picture

Is Marriage a right?

I say sure, it is. If someone wants to get married and they feel they know the pros and cons of it (what I have heard from others who are married, marriage is work) and they're ready, go for it.
Anonymous's picture

RE: Addition..

As I have finished reading the "The Secular Case Against Gay Marriage" that jackedup77 posted previously.

I am in partial agreement with this case against gay marriage because I see the point of this statement "Some argue that the link between marriage and procreation is not as strong as it once was, and they are correct. Until recently, the primary purpose of marriage, in every society around the world, has been procreation." (Kolasinksi, Adam: The Secular Case of Gay Marriage. Volume 124, Number 5;2004)

The other agreement I have is towards people who want to get married and who seem to really love each other, especially the homosexual couples who have been together for 30+ years.

jackedup77's picture

Again, I think the argument

Again, I think the argument is bogus.

On the surface, it would seem that homosexuality is the antithesis to procreation.

Evolutionary scientist have always wondered how the hell homosexuals have survived.  

If homosexuality is biological and If gays are so opposed to procreating, then they would have died out a long time ago?

http://www.livescience.com/health/080617-hereditary-homosexuality.html

Now, I've seen statistics that say gay men are less likely to have children; but it doesn't say they don't have children.

Also, If you look to nature (animals) and human history, homosexuality doesn't stop one from wanting to procreate. Animals will mate with the opposite sex, then bond with the same sex to raise their offspring. Many gay women and men get married and have children before they realize they are better off following their heart.

The link between marriage and procreation is no fault of homosexuals.  If it's such a problem, straight people need to get their shit in order and stop trying to blame everyone else for their problems.

Anonymous's picture

RE: Again, I think the argument..

My point of the quote I used from the article "The Secular..." is stating the traditional way of marriage, two people (our society's view a woman and man, except for two US states) get married to start a family of their own (create their own babies). In the past, as the children became older they helped their parents with labor, either household work, creating practical things (clothes, etc) and/or plant crops, etc. Now, modernized marriage is overshadowing that by couples explaining that they love each other extremely and want to get married. This is probably why there are many divorces, people find out marriage does not create a stronger bond for most couples.

Now I find your argument off track with the traditional (and still used) way of marriage by many people excluding children helping with the labor.

Homosexual couples are the opposite of procreation however with our advanced technology (and the age old way of reproduction), these couples can have babies. But one person in the couple will not be able to fully create a baby with their spouse/significant other (mainly in woman/woman relationship). With men/men relationship, I believe they can join their sperm together to create a baby, I have heard about this happening somehow with a heterosexual couple. The only example I can think of right now is a woman who had twins, one child with her male significant other and the other with a man cheated with.

Your argument along with the article "Why Gays Don't Go Extinct", make some interesting points. The possible reason for gays not becoming extinct is from the article’s explanation that I can agree with. It shows there is a (possible) reason why there are homosexuals in the world. Your quote “Many gay women and men get married and have children before they realize they are better off following their heart.”, I understand but there are many other reasons why this happens. The people who accept their sexuality after being married could have always known but were afraid and felt they needed to follow the traditional way of marriage. The other view explaining about animals, animals are programmed to mate how many times a year, raised the babies to a point than leave them than repeat the next year (except for a few animals). Humans are different we are programmed to have babies BUT we have our reasons behind why we want or do not want children, when we want children such as after a starting a career or before, etc. This makes me think homosexuals have it a little easier because we could plan, when, where, how, why, the baby will fit in the picture of a starting a family.
I agree it is not homosexuals faults that the traditional way of marriage (starting a family) is the way it is. However the modernized view of marriage (the strength of love) can help bring a new view to everyone (no matter what sexual orientation) if there is a concrete reason behind it. In the past marriage was about family helping each other out, now it is about personal reasons. How can personal reason be translated into an overall “worldview” of marriage?
To add, if some heterosexual people are so against homosexuality, I say they should look at themselves and say “I will not have children because my child could possibly be attracted to their gender”. How likely will that happen?! LOL.
Anonymous's picture

Friendship Laws?

http://www.afterellen.com/node/34216#comment

Look at this thread that the user Al posted. I think this pertains to this discussion in a way.