Is Marriage a Right?I know the overwhelming response to that question is 'duh'. But, where is the proof? I know there are some who think that marriage is not a right and that gay people are taking it too far. We should be satisfied with civil unions. First, Civil unions and domestic partnerships are only valid within a state. There are federal privileges, protections, and benefits that are denied to people who are not married. And thanks to the DOMA, other states do not have to recognize civil unions or domestic partnerships. Second, to make this first post short, I will be giving evidence supporting marriage as a right and also protected under the fourteenth amendment. Anyone else who has evidence, please contribute. It's good to have ammunition when talking to those who disagree. Anyone who disagrees, feel free to dissent. Submitted by jackedup77 (1183 posts) on July 1, 2008 - 10:51pm. |
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Perez v. Sharp (California,1948)
full text opinion of case (pdf)
This case overturned the ban on interracial marriage in California
The court stated:
RE: Perez vs. Sharp..
I am imagining that same gender marriage to stand in for this case.
What would you state (or what would you want to be stated) in place of this statement: "...Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race."(Skinner v. Oklahoma, supra, at p. 541.)
To me, the statement above (esp. the word "procreation") is what is not allowing same gender marriage to occur in other states in America.
*A Fact: In the state of Alabama, interracial marriage wasn't allowed until year 2000.
Define Procreation
What does procreation mean today? There's the old fashioned way of course. But there is also adoption and artificial insemination. And it seems to me that regardless of the method, that child ought to have parents that can be legally bound to each other and to the child.
Also, if marriage is for procreation why do straight couples have the right to get married even if they have no plans to procreate or are unable to due to health reasons and turn to alternative methods. If they were barred from marriage it would clearly be discrimination.
And of course, marriage certainly isn't a requirement for procreation.
RE: Define Procreation..
Exactly, GrrrlRomeo with your question about define procreation.
Many people(or it seems) view procreation as a man and woman creating a baby and having a family together. They do not see that a man and man(or woman and woman) could adopt, etc. Some people see it as a couple you have to be able to create a baby.
So my question is how do you explain in another way (to support same gender marriage) to people who see it that way?
*I can add, what about heterosexual couples who can not have children, couples who do not want children, etc. but still many people see it as you have to be able to create a baby. And with the couple not being able, probably a few people see it as the couple could have created a baby except they aren't able to.
The Skinner case did say,
The Skinner case did say, "Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race." It did not implicitly state that procreation was a requirement for marriage. The Skinner case dealt with compulsory sterilization. The ruling statement was to reiterate that people had a right to procreate. I think the judge added the marriage part in there because it was a given that people would marry before they procreated.
RE: The Skinner case..
I knew someone would bring it up.
I asked myself the same question. Then I noticed that there are plenty of straight married couples who don't have children. Many of these couples cannot have children. So, is their marriage valid?
Even according to catholic law, infertility is not grounds for annulment.
AND, with modern technology, there is nothing stoping a gay family from procreating.
Can we say that straight couples who use outside sperm donors or egg donors do not have a valid marriage? No one would.
*As the article I posted below stated, the interracial marriage ban in Alabama was not enforced. The law was nullified about 30 years ago.
RE: I knew someone..
How can same gender marriage become valid? What can be stated to show same gender loving people who want to get married in other states that it isn't allowed that it's valid?
What allowed same gender marriage in Massachusetts and California? How can that information be helpful in trying to get marriage in other states?
short answer
Well, I was hoping that by posting the decision in those two states, that question could be answered. Feel free to read the full decisions.
Long answer:
Most of those court decisions stated that marriage was a right to marry someone of your choice. They didn't put any other qualifications on it.
And All cases site the 14th amendment. The argument is that denying same sex marriage, denies the right to due process and equal protection.
"To me, the statement above
"To me, the statement above (esp. the word "procreation") is what is not allowing same gender marriage to occur in other states in America. "
I highly doubt that. If this were the case, then these same states would/should be stopping those who don't want or are unable to procreate from getting married. At the very least, they should doing more to encourage married couples to have children.
I don't think the opposition to gay marriage is about procreation. I remeber reading a comment on a different site that concluded that it is more about selfishness, bigotry, or a combination of both. I personally wouldn't go that far but it is more believable to me than the notion that most gay marriage opponents do so out of some desire to foster procreation and preserve the human race.
RE: To me, the statement above..
I see that explanation as well, "selfishness, bigotry, or a combination of both". But there has to be more to it than that or procreation. If it is so simple for s.g marriage to possibly happen, why won't it be allowed in many other states? Marriage between individuals is their business so why is it made personal to others? With that marriage could become very open to other joinings, three people wanting to get married, etc.
So my question is how do you explain the exact statement for why same gender people could get married?
To me, this issue is very broad to make simple so far. The only way I think a possibly of marriage between the same genders being allowed, is asking every single individual in America who is a certain age like 16 or older. What is their view on marriage, do they think same gender people should be allowed to marry, etc?
Let's look at the opposing arguments
Honestly, The only resistance against gay marriage is a religious one. I've never heard a secular argument against gay marriage... OK I take it back. "
This dude is basically using the same "marriage is for procreation" argument; except he's taking the religion out of it. What this dude fails to realize is that the state's main interest is protecting our freedoms. And that even if it is in the state's interest to propagate society; gay people still have the means to procreate. Then the dude uses the slippery slope fallacy. And his proposal is still misaligned with the 14th amendment. It doesn't matter what the interest of the state is, it matters that citizens have equal rights. In closing, this guy is a tool.
The other argument is that gay marriage will undermine the institution of marriage.
What they fail to realize is gay marriage is not a new thing. And, contemporary gay marriage can't do half the damage that divorce has done to marriage. And there is no evidence to this claim.
RE: Opposing argument..
(I am repeating what you all stated previously towards this secualr argument) What if the homosexual married couple have adopted children (or whatever), shouldn't they have the benefits of marriage (between a man and woman with children)?
That is why I say marriage is very broad and the explanations on why it is allowed mainly for heterosexuals in America.
I think the better question
In re MARRIAGE CASES (California, 2008)
Text of the decision (pdf)
California supreme court review:
Those are just a few excerpts. I invite you all to read the entire decision since it's full of good stuff
My inclination is to say
Goodridge vs. Dep. of Public Health (Mass., 2003)
text of decision
This is the Massachusetts decision stricking down the ban on gay marriage:
I purposely added the text that named various rights that are given to married couples.
what am I trying to prove
with all these posts?
That each case set precedence declaring marriage as a right (the right to join in marriage with the person of one’s choice) protected under the 14th amendment.
Loving v. Virgina (U.S. Supreme Court 1967)
Mildred Loving released this in 2007 on the 40th Anniversary of the Loving v. Virginia decision:
LOVING v. VIRGINIA (1967)
full text of opinion
damn, you beat me to it. Oh well, here's a link to the case anywayFederal constitution vs. state constitution
My concern is with states making amendments to their constitution to only recognize marriage only between a man and a woman.
Can a state constitutional amendment be overturned by the Federal Supreme Court? I'm pretty sure it can but I can't find any examples.
I came across this CNN article stating that South Carolina voted to remove its constitutional ban on interracial marriage in 1998! Apparently, the ban that was inacted in 1895 was not enforced. The legislators wouldn't allow voters to decide to remove it and a poll said that only two-thirds of voters wanted to remove the ban.
Alabama was the last to repeal their ban in 2000. CNN article
I know people don't like it when gay marriage is compared to interracial marriage; but, it all looks very familiar
Yes, Fed overrules state
Loving v. Virginia made anti-miscenegation laws unconstitutional. While some states kept it on their books, they were unenforcable because of the Supreme Court decision.
The same is true for Lawrence V. Texas where the Supreme Court decided that Texas' sodomy law which made gay sex illegal was unconstitutional. They decided that consensual sex was protected by the 14th Amendment. And in doing so made all state sodomy laws unenforcable.
Some states even maintain segregation laws on the books even though it can't be enforced since segregation is illegal according to the federal government.
The recent Supreme Court's decision the interpretation of the 2nd amendment has also overturned state and local laws regarding gun control.
I looked and couldn't find
It's in the name of the court case
Loving v. Virginia, Lawrence v. Texas. That's the whole point of the Supreme Court cases...a party challenging a state law as unconstitutional under federal law. When the Supreme Court decides against the state, similar laws become unenforcable in all states.
A law allowing gays to marry
would take precedence to any state constitutional ban. Also, a supreme court ruling would do the trick as well.
For example, the 24th amendment that barred poll taxes. Also the 18th and 21st amendment, when ratified took precedence over any state laws. Also, roe v wade made it legal for women to have abortions and doctors to administer them (free from fear of legal ramifications). And in Miranda v Arizona we had the right to know our rights so we don't incriminate ourselves. However, this has recently been undermind due to a little thing called the Patriot Act (and the right of habeas corpus). Though, a constitutional ban on gay marriage would make it illeagal in all states regardless.
The supreme court can overrule a state consitutional ban, however a state court cannot. For example, Torcaso v Watkins which declared that "religious tests" in order to hold office that are still in many a state's consitution are void based on the first amendment of the Constitution.
So if we get the Supreme court to rule that defineing mariage as between a man and a woman is unconstitutional the definitions thereof in states constitutions would be null and void.
RE: A law allowing..
Thanks Checkas for the information.
And thanks jackedup77 and others for information as well.
"A law allowing gays to
"A law allowing gays to marry would take precedence to any state constitutional ban."
I think this is correct unless the Supreme Court finds the such a law to be in violation of states' rights and the constitution. I guess what I am saying is that it is possible for the national legislature to enact a statute that would recognize same-sex marriages and such a law could still be invalidated if a state were to sue the federal government and SCOTUS sided with the state.
I gotta put this in
I gotta put this in perspective by analogy.
That's like saying:
The Supreme Court overruled the ban on interracial marriage with Loving v Virginia. But, Alabama could come back and sue the federal govt. causing the Supreme Court to go back on it's earlier decision.
I don't think it works that way. Unless you've got an example
You've misunderstood me.
You've misunderstood me. I am not addressing a SCOTUS decision, that would be binding unless the federal legislature enacts an amendment. I am talking about a law (statute) enacted by the federal legislature. If a state feels that the federal government has overstepped their bounds in creating a law that sufficiently affects it, the state can indeed sue the federal government in the Supreme Court. If SCOTUS were to side with the state, the federal statute is null and void and the only way the federal government can overrule the Court is if federal legislature goes back and passes a constitutional amendment.
For an example, see United States v. Lopez (1995)
http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/93-1260.ZO.html
Gotcha
Yeah, I'm thinking the ban on gay marriage HAS to go the way of the ban on interracial marriage.
The only way we can be through with this is to have the Supreme Court declare the ban on gay marriage unconstitutional.
Looks like we're gonna have
Looks like we're gonna have to wait a bit longer then. Unless there's a few Justice Souters sitting on that Court, I'm not very optimistic.
I can't believe I'm still awake, going to bed now. Goodnight everyone.
beat me to it
Isn't the DOMA in violation of the Constitution?
DOMA states:
Article IV, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution states:
It seems like a flagrant violation to me. How did they get away with it? I've seen that there have been appeals made to the Supreme Court but the court refuses to review them.
It isn't because it doesn't
It isn't because it doesn't limit any state legislation, only the federal government recognizing same-sex couples the rights granted in marriage. The second clause of Article 4 section 1 allows the US government to claim certain amenities to states, such as the age of consent, the legal drinking age, and apparently the right for gays to marry. And historically, this has been interpreted by the supreme court to mean little more than nothing, giving states the rights to enforce their laws, rulings, and decisions that do not directly oppose the constitution.
It would seem that Obama, who claims that he would give federally employed same-sex couples domestic partner benefits would be refuteing DOMA.
yup
I see that 'full faith and credit' was the reason behind creating DOMA in the first place. With DOMA, congress exercised their power to, by general Laws, prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records, and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.
bastards
Obama and DOMA
I agree that it violates the
Just thought of something...
I am using the Loving vs. Virginia case, the quoted statement "Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival...." to explain how s.g marriage can be explained (possibly).
The word existence, could sums up how individuals (no matter what sexual orientation) need comfort, love, support, etc from another person if they choose to have it. Like with babies being born, contact has to be the main factor or the baby will not survive for long. Humans can find contact through other humans (friends, family, significant others..), animals (pets...), etc. but it has to be there.
The word survival, adds to the strength of contact between humans. Without it, humans will not survive no matter what sexual orientation.
I apologize jackedup77 for not answering your question "is marriage a right?". I am in my own little world right now about the question I have on this issue. I am really interested in this topic right now. Thanks for bringing it up.
No worries
Was that why you created it?
It seemed from your introduction that you were looking for like-minded people so that you could collect all of your winning arguments to use later as "ammunition" - will the gun analogies never end? :) - against "those who disagree".
So, in my newly well-behaved manner, I have stayed away from getting in the mix. I may still be on probation.
:)
In my introduction, I also
In my introduction, I also stated that anyone who disagrees should feel free to dissent.
How can we come up with counterpoints if we don't know what the opposition is thinking?
Feel free to contribute. I'm a big girl. I don't care if you're well behaved or not; but, this ain't my site. Just don't expect any sympathy if you get called out on your bad behavior.
I invite your insights.
Ah, I see, well...
...right back atcha.
Happy Independence Day to all of the yanks on the boards!
Now let the debates continue....
RE: Just thought..
I think in today's day and
I think in today's day and age (chuckles, that a terrible way to begin..), there seems to be this proliferating fear of marriage, due to high divorce rate -- possibly.
Coming from a very close-knit family that values marriage between a man and a women quite highly, I have often taken issue with the idea of it, legal or religiously-inclined. I think that when it comes down to it, I would prefer people to focus seriously on civil unions as well as marriages, and having the proper allocated rights divided, so if I have a girlfriend/partner who is sick, I can have my insurance for her covered and so forth.
I admit I do not know too much about this issue and I should. Indeed, I have learned a great deal simply from this thread, but I am no fan of marriage, (chuckles), sorry -- that's my own personal conflict to deal with. But if anyone feels they should and would like to, I support it full-heartedly, irregardless, well, that's pretty obvious. :)
To be honest with you
I'm not a fan of marriage either. I stated my opinion in another thread.
Come to think of it, this thread is in opposition to what I really think of marriage.
Be that as it may, I think it's a proven right.
And those suckers who want to partake in it shouldn't be discriminated against.
Is Marriage a right?
RE: Addition..
As I have finished reading the "The Secular Case Against Gay Marriage" that jackedup77 posted previously.
I am in partial agreement with this case against gay marriage because I see the point of this statement "Some argue that the link between marriage and procreation is not as strong as it once was, and they are correct. Until recently, the primary purpose of marriage, in every society around the world, has been procreation." (Kolasinksi, Adam: The Secular Case of Gay Marriage. Volume 124, Number 5;2004)
The other agreement I have is towards people who want to get married and who seem to really love each other, especially the homosexual couples who have been together for 30+ years.
Again, I think the argument
Again, I think the argument is bogus.
On the surface, it would seem that homosexuality is the antithesis to procreation.
Evolutionary scientist have always wondered how the hell homosexuals have survived.
If homosexuality is biological and If gays are so opposed to procreating, then they would have died out a long time ago?
http://www.livescience.com/health/080617-hereditary-homosexuality.html
Now, I've seen statistics that say gay men are less likely to have children; but it doesn't say they don't have children.
Also, If you look to nature (animals) and human history, homosexuality doesn't stop one from wanting to procreate. Animals will mate with the opposite sex, then bond with the same sex to raise their offspring. Many gay women and men get married and have children before they realize they are better off following their heart.
The link between marriage and procreation is no fault of homosexuals. If it's such a problem, straight people need to get their shit in order and stop trying to blame everyone else for their problems.
RE: Again, I think the argument..
Now I find your argument off track with the traditional (and still used) way of marriage by many people excluding children helping with the labor.
Homosexual couples are the opposite of procreation however with our advanced technology (and the age old way of reproduction), these couples can have babies. But one person in the couple will not be able to fully create a baby with their spouse/significant other (mainly in woman/woman relationship). With men/men relationship, I believe they can join their sperm together to create a baby, I have heard about this happening somehow with a heterosexual couple. The only example I can think of right now is a woman who had twins, one child with her male significant other and the other with a man cheated with.
Your argument along with the article "Why Gays Don't Go Extinct", make some interesting points. The possible reason for gays not becoming extinct is from the article’s explanation that I can agree with. It shows there is a (possible) reason why there are homosexuals in the world. Your quote “Many gay women and men get married and have children before they realize they are better off following their heart.”, I understand but there are many other reasons why this happens. The people who accept their sexuality after being married could have always known but were afraid and felt they needed to follow the traditional way of marriage. The other view explaining about animals, animals are programmed to mate how many times a year, raised the babies to a point than leave them than repeat the next year (except for a few animals). Humans are different we are programmed to have babies BUT we have our reasons behind why we want or do not want children, when we want children such as after a starting a career or before, etc. This makes me think homosexuals have it a little easier because we could plan, when, where, how, why, the baby will fit in the picture of a starting a family.
I agree it is not homosexuals faults that the traditional way of marriage (starting a family) is the way it is. However the modernized view of marriage (the strength of love) can help bring a new view to everyone (no matter what sexual orientation) if there is a concrete reason behind it. In the past marriage was about family helping each other out, now it is about personal reasons. How can personal reason be translated into an overall “worldview” of marriage?
To add, if some heterosexual people are so against homosexuality, I say they should look at themselves and say “I will not have children because my child could possibly be attracted to their gender”. How likely will that happen?! LOL.
Friendship Laws?
http://www.afterellen.com/node/34216#comment
Look at this thread that the user Al posted. I think this pertains to this discussion in a way.