A movement has begun to show the DNC, the media and others that the blatant sexism toward Hillary has consequences. Our numbers are made up of many of the HALF (yes, that's 50%) of democrats that support Hillary. If Obama becomes the nominee, we will not vote for him.
To learn more, go to clinton supporters count too. org --Please make sure to go to the .org site, not the .com site.
Submitted by
on May 27, 2008 - 9:36am.
Madness!
"If Obama becomes the nominee, we will not vote for him."
I'm sorry but this is beyond stupid. Yes, the blatant sexism Hillary has been subjected to is appalling, but after the last eight years the only thing that matters is getting the Republicans out. Hold your nose and vote for the Democratic candidate, or don't and you could be ensuring the Republicans get back in and you get more of what they've been dishing up over the past eight years: more wars, more state torture, more destruction of the middle class and of your civil liberties. That's the choice.
Quit with the name calling, will ya
At this point, Obama is reminding me a lot of Bush. Remember back in 2000, when the Florida votes weren't counted? Well, Obama recently spent over a million dollars of his campaign funds to ensure that there would be no revotes in Michigan and Florida. This is not the action of an honorable, trustworthy man. This is the action of a man willing to win at all costs.
I'm a Floridian, and you can bet I'm mad as heck that Obama did not want our votes to count. Now that the votes won't have an impact, he's starting to say he wants them to count. What a joke. Now that he's just about wrapped up the nomination by excluding us, he wants our votes? Is he joking? Is he mad?
Florida and Michigan Votes
Maybe Florida should have followed the rules and not held their primaries early. They were warned ahead of time, but went ahead with it anyway.
How can you blame Obama for taking advantage of something gift-wrapped and handed to him like Florida and Michigan did? Hillary would have done the same thing if the roles were reversed. You wouldn't be complaining then I bet.
First of all, Florida is
First of all, Florida is controlled by republicans. THEY are the ones who decided to have the primary early. The democrats were outnumbered, so they are not to blame. Yes, they were warned, but they had no power to do anything about it.
How can I blame Obama for excluding millions of voters? Well, isn't he the one who claimed to be different from other politicians? "Change we can believe in" is his motto. When it comes right down to it, he's no better than Bush. The HONORABLE thing to do would have been to let there be a revote. But, just like Bush, he chose winning over honor.
As far as how I would feel if the roles were reversed, I would actually feel the same. I knew that in 2000, I would have been just as disappointed with the Supreme Court if they had voted a democrat into office. For me, the democratic process of having every vote count means more than having who I want in office.
I don't think you understand
Obama doesn't run the DNC so your anger towards him is unreasonable for this. Also, you are not listening to any of us, Are you saying Hillary is an innocent angel in all of this ? You haven't done your research on this at all have you. You are just jumping to conclusions without all of the facts I think.
The same could be said of yourself
You ought to do some research before jumping to conclusions. Donna Brazile, an Obama supporter, who coyly plays with the term, "uncommitted," sits on the Chair of the DNC. Many top DNC brass have endorsed Obama. No one is saying that Obama runs the DNC, but in politics, you don't have to "run" something in order to make it happen? That's why we have something called surrogates... and Obama has plenty in the DNC brass.
Looks like a ganging up of groovygirl here, including by a so-called AfterEllen moderator, and you demand that she "listen to you guys?" Why aren't you listening to groovygirl? Seems to me we Clinton supporters are done listening to all of you. We've had the Obama-loving media and his overzealous supporters shoving Barack down our throats for months now. We're done listening. Now is the time for action.
The treatment of Hillary by the media, Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, their supporters and surrogates have caused deep resentment amongst those of us who love and support Hillary. From sexism, to charges of racism, to accusing her of insinuating Obama's assassination because of an allusion to RFK, to the continued compaign to force her out has resulted in this call for action to not vote for Barack Obama.
If Obama and his supporters/surrogates can treat a former First Lady and a well-loved two-term Democratic President in the manner in which they have, why should we vote for him? For a man whose campaign theme is about positivity, he's gone down and dirty. Same old. Same old.
Lanny Davis sums up the rationale for why Clinton supporters harbor deep resentment for the this Oprah-manufactured Boy Wonder:
Four Things the Obama Campaign Couldn't Resist Doing to Anger Clinton Supporters:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lanny-davis/four-things-the-obama-cam_b_103756.html
Different perspectives
I was offering my opinion. Thanks for reminding me why I do not do it very often - Apparently it is only appropriate for me to move and edit posts, not debate.
If everyone shared everyone else's political opinion then politics wouldn't exist.
All that I have tried to express is that a non-vote by Democrats is only a vote for McCain; someone that is for overturning Roe vs Wade and may very well have the power to do so through judicial nominations. I don't see how you're representing women by advocating Hillary supporters not vote for Obama.
You seem to pin all hopes on Obama. Pffft..
First, I don't need to be told that everyone has different political opinions. That is a given. You have in many, many posts given your opinion on the topic. Looks like a ganging up on one person from my perspective. And I really don't appreciate it coming from an AfterEllen moderator.
It reminds me terribly of Donna Brazile, a woman who sits on the Chair of the DNC going on CNN and pretending that she's a neutral voice.
groovygirl is not coming out from left field. Many of us Clinton supporters are seething with resentment for the way the Clintons have been treated by members of their own party. Obama campaign tactics go under the radar and are not reported by the mainstream media. Those of us who follow this Primary closely know what he and his advisor, David Axelrod, have done and are are up to.
You seem so sure that Obama will change things. Nothing in his history demonstrates that. He is an empty suit. He delivers speeches that aren't even his own (please see Deval Patrick). His record on abortion-rights are dubious; he sends out an ex-gay homophobe to pander to religious black South Carolinians; he skips town when a controversial bill comes to the floor; since September 2007, he's missed 80% of Senate votes; he did not bother to vote to veto Bush's most recent budget proposal...
He skipped out on the Iranian Amendment; the S-CHIP, the Move-On condemnation...
I don't buy into "Hope and Change" because someone tells me to. I don't buy into the hype. Nothing in Obama's past or present suggest he even knows what hope and change is about.
If you wish to make Obama more than he really is, that is your business. If you wish to demohize John McCain, that is your business.
Hillary Clinton is the only person I trust with the keys to the White House.
We both must have a different interpretation of what's in the best interest of the country.
...
Ganging up? Um, you realize Groovygirl started this topic right? If you guys can't express your opinions and stances without crying that you're being ganged up on, then I don't know why you're even posting here. The funny thing is, you both are ganging up on me. I'll live.
Please show me where I expressed all of this confidence in Obama. I've said already, and I'll say it again - I am a Hillary supporter. I just recognize that McCain will attempt to overturn Roe vs Wade and thus negatively impact women's lives.
I NEVER praised Obama, all I have been saying this entire time is that he is the lesser of two evils.
Thanks, legallybrunette
Your post is a welcome relief from the pummeling I've been taking.
The harsh reality Obama supporters need to accept is there are millions of us out there that feel this way. We will not be voting for Obama. For some, his supporters' behavior is part of the reason why.
do the Clinton supporters need to do the same for obama?
The harsh reality Obama supporters need to accept is there are millions of us out there that feel this way. We will not be voting for Obama. For some, his supporters' behavior is part of the reason why.
I certainly hope you realize that many of the Obama supporters feel the exact same way about Hillary supporters.
Research
Shygurl, Obama paid over a million dollars to prevent a recount in Michigan and Florida. I am a FLORIDIAN, which means my vote did not count. I don't need to do any more research about this, I was directly affected by it. Why should I support a candidate who fought to exclude my vote so he could win?
Hillary offered to pay half of what it would cost for a revote in both states. Instead of joining her, Obama paid over a million dollars to prevent it. Again, this is not how an honorable man behaves.
Still not Obama's fault
Take the issue up with the actual people who run the DNC. We are going in circles and you still aren't listening IMO. I will just continue to disagree with you. It doesn't solve anything. Let me just say this, I do feel like you are basically attacking people who support Obama . People who like Obama will still like him no matter what you say, it's the same with Hillary. It's time for liberals to get together and focus on the big picture of keeping abortion legal, better health insurance, better jobs for all Americans and of course gay rights. Fighting among each other isn't solving any of these issues.
I'm sorry
I've been chronically disappointed in what's going on in Florida. I just cannot understand why yall can't vote like normal people. I mean between the first Bush Election and now this primary...I mean if anything yall need to worry less about voting and more about why the voting process in Florida is not legit. Fix your system! If the republicans are responsible, hold them accountable! I think Obama is an easy target. He's easy to hate. But holding your fellow Floridans accountable...hmm, maybe that's an impossible feat b/c it probably starts with you.
www.myspace.com/blasianbeatnik02
Your post made me laugh--
your pink bow makes me
I think I'm missing something...
The Republicans held the Democrat primary early?
I live in Michigan, and here it was the Democrats who held their primary early.
And siding with Harpy, it came back to bite them in the ass.
Shhhh...
...yes, we did. The Democrats in Florida aren't that smart. Remember it was in Democrat-run strong-holds that the infamous Butterfly ballot was used - created by Democrats! It was evidently so confusing that they elected the wrong guy. HA!
Now when I say "aren't that smart" I mean as a whole...that is...not any of the militant posters here, of course.....walking away.....I'm armed, people, and MY SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS HAVE BEEN AFIRMED!!!!
Thank you, Jesus, for Thomas, Scalia, Alito, Roberts and....forgive me, Lord....that fuck-face, Kennedy. Amen.
Just barely too, sister!
I don't know about you, but I think a 5-4 decision on this case is absolutely frightening.
And about the Republicans having the Democrat primary early in Florida, sorry about that, their secret's safe with me. Shhh...
do not agree florida can
You're kidding right? Are
You're kidding right? Are you ready for the 2012 primaries to begin in Nov 08? The DNC rules prevent states from trying to one up each other like this did this year when there was talk of December primaries. I do think that aside from Iowa and NH the other 2 early states should be rotating to give small states a chance to be in the beginning and get a lot of press coverages. Big states proportionally get more delegates and have a bigger chance of making states that vote afterwards irrelevant, smaller states count too. I live in a big state btw.
The DNC rules need major
I agree that the DNC needs
FL was trying to do the best for their state
In any other year, when the delegates didn't have any say at the convention, it would have not mattered. In fact it would have only increased FL's power - as Guiliani was hoping for, people would see who FL preferred and as is their usual way, vote with the masses.
The primary system is hopelessly flawed, and FL was trying to do something to make it slightly more fair. Honestly, even though it turned out the way it did, I'm still glad they did it - at least it drew attention to the problem, and maybe eventually we'll get a better, more fair system.
preventing revotes?
Well, Obama recently spent over a million dollars of his campaign funds to ensure that there would be no revotes in Michigan and Florida.
Do you have details about that? Where was the money spent?
The money was largely spent
Sources
I did look it up, and I found nothing. You have to cite your sources. It's your responsibility.
Obama would win even if Florida AND Michigan were counted (if you use simple math that I like to call "addition").
Currently:
Obama - 1,984
Clinton - 1,781
Add Florida and Michigan:
Obama - 2,075
Clinton - 1,959
Add the remaining Puerto Rico, Montana and South Dakota, and however unlikely give Clinton 100% of their delegates and superdelegates:
Obama - 2,075
Clinton - 2,070
The reality is, Clinton will win Puerto Rico and Obama will win Montana and South Dakota.
There are still some uncommitted superdelegates and Clinton would have to get 100% of Puerto Rico, Montana and South Dakota + 6 more superdelegates than Obama. And the superdelegates aren't going to turn the tables as it will give the appearance that they are overriding the voters.
Clinton is trying to have her cake and eat it to when she says she wants Florida and Michigan voters to count. Because if they are counted, she would still need superdelegates to tip it which is essentiall overriding the voters from every state.
Since it's "my
Since it's "my responsibility", I've begun to collect a few links for your viewing pleasure.
1. notice how Obama never says he wants a revote. He's says he's not against it, but finds fault with every solution for it.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/19/clinton.michigan/index.html
http://www.ecanadanow.com/news/us/clinton-wants-revote-in-michigan-florida-obama-does-not-20080313.html
I'll continue to add to these as I find more, if I find more. Unfortunately, our mainstream media somehow has been lax in reporting on this topic--I wonder why? The few articles I read at the time this was happening have mysteriously disappeared from the net--again, I wonder why?
Note: There are tons of articles about this on blogs, but I don't consider blogs a reputable source.
Easy to make statements like
I spent a while looking for
I spent a while looking for specific references to Obama spending money to directly prevent revotes in some way, found nothing, and then came back here to ask in what I felt was the most neutral wording possible.
I think your phrasing was somewhat inflammatory.
Worst. Idea. Ever.
I agree, this is stupid. So Democrats and/or Hillary supporters should not vote for Obama because the media has displayed some sexism?
Elections are about who we want to lead the country - That's a hell of a lot more important than using some backwards means to protest the media. I don't get this at all. It's crap like this that helped to land Bush in office the last two elections.
Worst. Idea. Ever.
Different does not equal stupid
I will not be voting for McCain. I will also not be voting for Obama. I do not trust Obama. There is something about him that scares me (and no, it's not because he's black). He has risen in power too fast. He hasn't proven how he would handle it, or even if he can handle it. He seems arrogant and petty. He reminds me, personality wise, of Bush.
Also, it wasn't just the media that displayed sexism. Examples of Obama's sexism: calling a female reporter he was annoyed with sweetie, holding out a chair for Hillary at the debate ( a sexist power play), holding onto Hillary's shoulder while shaking her hand at a debate ( another sexist power play), telling Hillary she's likable enough. To me, Obama seems smarmy and obnoxious. So, no, I won't be voting for a man I don't like or trust.
Just because a political view is different than yours does not mean it's stupid.
You've got to be kidding me!
You've got to be kidding me! Holding out her chair and telling her she's likable enough is sexist? Are you serious? The only remotely sexist thing is calling the reporter sweetie. What you call sexism is really just being kind.
I'm not one of these women who never see sexism I'm graduate school in a women's studies program. So while you have every right not to vote for Obama, and I may not agree with you but calling that behavior sexism when its clearly not is just wrong.
"Power is never given back. When it's stolen, if you want it back, you have to take it." - M. Caballero
Journey2enlightenment.blogspot.com
I agree
A woman who was my waitress yesterday called me sweetie and hon bunches of times and I doubt she was being sexist. Also, Obama said he was sorry for calling the reporter sweetie and said he's working on that. I have a feeling he probably calls his wife and daughters sweetie and it's a habit now which he will hopefully break .I just think a few Hillary supporters are just acting this way because she's not going to be the nominee more than likely. They are trying everything in their power to destroy Obama while not realizing they are hurting themselves in the end and the democratic party.
Social mores
In a social setting, it is o.k. for a woman to call another woman (even a stranger) sweetie, hon, etc...
The lines are more blurry for a man to use the same terms in a social setting
In a professional setting, it is NEVER o.k. for a man to call a woman sweetie, hon, etc... This is basic business ethics. A man as educated as Obama cannot claim ingnorance. He knew what he was doing, and is only sorry for getting caught on film.
Wow-- I never got the memo
Peaceful discussion
There is absolutely no reason for you to be so sarcastic, Emperor. I merely posted an informative post about our social mores. I was not mean or sarcastic at all. When I post such things I am keeping in mind that people from all over the world come to this board. They might learn something from it, and that's why I post it.
I find it absolutely amazing that so many Obama followers are all about a change in politics, when the majority of the mean and nasty posts online originate from them.
Sorry to be sarcastic. You
It's important to be
It's important to be sophisticated enough to understand that the social mores I wrote about are real and not a figment of my imagination.
If you don't believe what I've said about them, why not go to the Human Resources department of a decent sized business in your area. They would be more than happy to tell you that what I've said is the truth. Better yet, take a business or pychology course and query the professor about it.
Holding out a chair for a woman in a business setting is a no-no. It's a form of benevolent sexism ( not a term I made up, mind you).
Nice try at insulting, but
Deflecting YOUR insult
As far as using the sophisticated argument, I was actually referring to your previous post when you used that argument. Go back and read your post and you'll see that you used it first.
What I find troubling is that you continue to ignore well-known expressions of sexism because they've originated from Obama. These are not things I've made up. Most of them are in practically every fairly recent college textbook on psychology and business ethics.
Your use of the term feminazi makes me wonder if you actually have done any women's studies. It is a republican term. It's not something a feminist, any type of feminist, would say. This is because it's not just an insult to "a certain type of feminist," but insults all feminists.
I am having trouble
I am having trouble understanding why you think because we disagree that what you say is fact. I DISAGREE with you about the sexism. We disagree. You see sexism where I see political difference that could be applied to any gender. Just because someone uses a female reference to a female does not make it sexist any more than someone using a male reference to speak about a male. These "arguments" you use can only be used about women and these gender specific examples are not fact, no matter how much you claim them to be.
Again, as much as you may like to believe, you are not the be all to end all feminists. The term "feminazi", to me, describes those who warp the definition of feminism beyond recognition-- because I believe people like that give the feminist movement a bad name by being so extreme in the same way the
holy rollersreligiouswrongright gives christianity a bad name. These folks are the extreme who have warped the definition of the movement(s). I believe that stances such as yours set equality back, particularly when you claim your opinion as fact. Having a respectful conversation when you speak like that is difficult-- since you seem adamant that your opinion is fact. That's way too much like George Bush to me.you are not sophisticated.
Psychology is the key
Holding out a woman's chair in a professional setting is a sexist action. It was a subtle move to remind the audience that "he is a man and will take care of her."
Just like holding onto her shoulder while he's shaking her hand. It's a sexist power play with body language. This is not just my opinion, but a well-known fact of psychology.
Also, calling a reporter "sweetie" is not remotely sexist. It IS sexist. He was annoyed with her and didn't want to answer her question, so he put her down. It's the equivalent of calling a black male reporter "boy." If Hillary had done that, her campaign would have been over.
I still don't get it
I think you're are just hanging on to anything to make Obama seem sexist when he isn't. Your arguments are not really proving anything to me. Even as a feminist, I do sometimes think some feminists take it a step too far. Also, you really are over analyzing this way too much. I doubt you would appreciate me analyzing your body language as harshly as you are of him. Just say you don't like him instead of falsely of accusing him of being sexist .
Also, have you ever seen an interview with his wife. I don't think she would be having that. You are basically kind of implying that women who support Obama just ignore sexism which to me is insulting. I know sexist behavior and what you are talking about has more to do with manners. So if I hold open a door for another woman, am I doing a sexist thing? If a guy offers to carry something that is too big for me to carry, is he being sexist too? Are you one of those feminists who think women should support Hillary just because she is a woman because that is also a bad argument. Never mind, I don't really want to argue with you, I just don't agree with anything you're saying period.
Context
These seem to be “agree to disagree” issues. I think people tend to view these events (chair-holding, “sweetie,” and so on) through the lens of their own experiences. From every discussion I’ve participated in, both online and in real life, either people “see it” or they don’t.
Me? I honestly cringed when Obama held Clinton’s chair. It bothers me when my male co-workers hold my chair. It doesn’t bother me when my father does it. It’s contextual. Even though my co-workers think they’re being gentlemen, it just seems like another way of setting us apart. If they held chairs for men as well as women, it probably wouldn’t bother me. To me, it’s a subtle sort of workplace sexism. I found it inappropriate for a political debate.
The “sweetie” thing chafes, too. Maybe it’s a regional thing. I’m from Boston, and I’m not used to being referred to by endearments. Many southerners say they’re used to it. Again, it’s contextual. When men refer to me as “sweetie” it’s sure as hell not a endearment. It’s condescending. It’s meant to put me in my place. It was Obama’s tone that bothered me when he called the reporter “sweetie.” It wasn’t friendly, like it was when he called the factory worker “sweetie.” And his apology bugged me. He called it a “bad habit” and said he was “duly chastened.” Not “sorry, I’ll try not to do it again.” Just, it’s a “bad habit.” And “duly chastened”? It casts the reporter in this disapproving schoolmarm light. In my experience, people use “duly chastened” when they have to apologize, not when they really mean it. But that’s my experience, and I certainly can’t speak for everyone…
O.k. so you don't agree
O.k. so you don't agree with me, Shygurl. That's perfectly fine. What's not fine is for you to attack me personally for having a different opinion.
I recognize sexist behavior when I see it. I am not one of "those" feminists. God, I can't believe a woman actually said that to me! Obama has said and done some sexist things, period. Tens of millions of women agree with me, and I bet most of 'em are registered voters.
I wasn't attacking you
I'm sorry you took it that way. Also even as a feminist, like I said before, I do think sometimes a few other feminist take it too far such as trying to find something sexist in things that aren't or that support a candidate just because she is a woman. I'm proud of being a woman, it doesn't mean that I think all women are perfect or right. Also, let's not forget that I'm bisexual so you know I love women :) I have every right to stand up and disagree with another woman. I still disagree with you and your arguments but I'm not going there. We have bumped heads before. We just don't agree about anything. It happens.
I agree with you about
I agree with you 100%.