Some of my best frends are gay guys. True they can be some what annoying with thir 50$ teal scarf's ( I can't bevile he has one of those) but I can't hate on him for that. He gets what Im coming at and we both know what it's like to be hated on for who we like.

No one could ask for a better frend thugh out everthing.

yeah... I have a *thing* for gay boys ;) ...

Wow, thanks for the honor miss chatelaine. I never thought, as a gay guy, i'd be the centre of any topic here on AE...which is totally understandable of course as im not the target audience.

As a gay guy, i have to say that in general i get along better with lesbians than guy gays. I find a lot of gay guys (not all) to be somewhat superficial and self hating and unbelievably catty and bitchy. Its like they take out the hate of other people towards them on others. I also find some to be kind of shallow. Its like personal appearances are what they think all relationships should be measured by.

Coming here and finding people who value deeper qualities and are easier to talk to and less pretentious has been a relief. Personally, i don't think there is much of a anti-gay guy vibe here. Maybe if there were recaps of the L word on afterelton there would be similar complaints. I think it is understandable in a way because lgbt culture is so male dominated and so dominated by gay males. Its the same with gay pride parades and festivals. We definitely need to restore a bit of balance to those and have more lesbian content.

I don't know. But i read a lot of nice comments on youtube, presumably from lesbians, about the gender bending sex scene between Max and Tom. And there were some nice comments here.

All in all, I think like any two groups we can have our misunderstandings, but at the end of the day, we want to be inclusive and understanding of each other. If we can't break any barriers of miscommunication, how can we expect the straight majority to?

 Personally, I have to admit to being an avid L word watcher. And I absolutely love the Tina/Bette and Tasha/Alice storyline. I wish all gay shows had so much diversity. Its just so romantic and so beautiful. I like Jodie too...so guess im in bit of a dilemma.

Though seriously..we do understand each other better. And if a genie granted me 3 wishes..i'd ask that i be forever(incurably) gay and that i be made female instead of a guy. I don't know what it is, but i just find lesbian relationships so much warmer, deeper and more understanding. I know so many of my lesbian friends have long term partners that they're truly in love with. I know i want to experience that, but i don't know if i'll ever find that type of everlasting love. :( I'm no self hating gay but such relationships are rare and uncommon in the gay male community. I don't know if i'll ever find true love, but i hope i do. 

 

Some of my best friends are gay men and I love them and all their little quirks.  My gay male friends are adorable, caring, and will tell me how it really is.  I like some gay male movies like Brokeback Mountain just as I like some (not all) lesbian movies.  I don't "have a thing for gay men" (or any men for that matter) in the sense that I don't want to see them naked, women are just more beautiful and physically attractive to me.  I know there are plenty of lesbians who do feel, as you do, that they "really like gay men" in that way. I just happen not to be one of them.  Interesting topic though! ;-)

*edited to say I love QAF AND Dante's Cove! (but, I really watch Dante's to see Michelle Wolff :D)* 

This is a cool topic! I'm also a huge fan of my gay male friends,there's a link there that is based on a very interesting chemistry.I know that a lot of gay men have their straight 'fag-hags' because they share that liking/loving of men but I also think that lesbians and gay men have that special something...it's a relationship that has little to do with attraction and yet it centres around the fact that we all like people of the same gender.The other thing I find fascinating is that being among gay men brings out my own camp side; the longer I'm with my best male friend,the more I start using certain gestures and I sense my own masculinity that is otherwise lying dormant. I like that a lot.I'm always one for playing/experimenting with gender roles and identity. Hurray for gay men.

I also of course love movies and shows about lesbian/bi women too. Something about seeing two men happily in love with each other just melts my heart as with a lesbian/bi couple.

 

I agree, I think that seeing 2 men in love is beautiful, as are 2 women and even a woman and a man. Although my personal favourite to watch from a purely sexual point of view are two women.

On some level I believe (especially when watching TV or movies) that I "get off on emotion" for lack of a better phrase. And that its the emotions and feelings between the characters that melt my heart, no matter what gender they may be.

 

“You know you are in love
when you see the world in her eyes,
and her eyes everywhere in the world.”- David Levesque –

are awesome.  i wandered into a gay male bar and a few guys bought me drinks and chatted with me...no hassle of being hit on.  the next day i saw gay couples of both the male and female types wandering around ikea and it made me smile

one of my best friends is a gay dude - we get eachother's romantic situation a lot more than our straight friends can.

 and i must admit, two guys together is kind of hot.  but i won't try to steal your boyfriend. 

so, any gay guys that have ventured to afterellen, you're always welcome to hang out.

I love gay men, I just don't want to sleep with them. I do wonder sometimes why gay men post here and not on a gay men's site and why some who post seem to want to make their gay male issues the center of discussion rather than trying to just assimilate and fit in with the flow of things. I'm not saying I mind guys here, because I don't, I just like the idea of discussing things with women only sometimes.

Am I some sort of lesbian separatist from the 70's???  *lol*  I'm not against gay men per se nor men in general really, but it does piss me off that men seem to always intrude on places where women congregate.  Even this site!  Before I get howled down I realise that this is a non exclusive site and everyone is welcome - and I applaud that - it just makes me wonder why men - gay or straight - would even be interested in being here.  Or why they think they are so important that we care what they think!  After all, as a gay woman, I don't really care what men think!  When all is said and done - men - be they gay or straight - are still men and have that insufferable arrogance of assuming that they are the most important thing in the world.....

 *hearing the explosion of the can of worms opening*

Cheers for that thought process.  Why in the world would a man, being either gay or straight, want to come onto a website like this?  It would never cross my mind to go onto a gay mens website, so why are they here?  But then again men seem to think they are the centre of the universe and so we, as women and the 'lesser' sex, would drop everything to listen to what they have to say. 

I think of this site as a safe place where women have a chance to discuss anything and everything with other 'women'.  We get to hear 'mans' opinion everywhere in society, so it's nice to hear a womans opinion every now and again.  It's definitely rare to be able to get together in a forum such as this and discuss whatever we like.  Men tend to dominate conversations, even gay men.   Now I stress I am not a 'man hater' but come on, this is a place for women of every walk of life to come together and just be themselves.

I would just like to say that I don't think painting all men, gay and straight, with the same brush is a wise idea. I realize that and I think Sarah Warn also mentioned, in response to a comment on her video blog, that a lot of lgbt media is dominated by gay males but that her friends on Afterelton.com were not like that and realized the need for equal reporting of issues. I think it was mentioned by Malinda a while ago, in response to someone asking why there were too many straight people, that she said there were about 3% of people who were not lesbians here. So i have to say that fears of a takeover are kind of premature. And i think there are about 2 gay males who post here, including me.

I don't think male opinion is more important than female opinion. Or that my opinion should be listened to or read by anyone. Neither do I intend to be the centre of the AE universe, I'm quite happy to remain in the periphery and blend into the background, and even to be given a lower status and not considered a planet..like Pluto. 

On a more serious note, I understand that lesbian voices face double marginalization in society due to their sezual orientation and being female. I guess I felt i could relate being a gay male and a person of color. I felt like i could relate to that double marginalization in a way and I felt that, in general, lesbians could understand that double marginalization too.

Interestingly, there was an article on afterelton about out gay journalists on TV. I think a female commented that she wished afterellen would have an article on out female journalists. And then a guy commented that he was disappointed that the article did not mention any out female journalists. Sarah Warn mentioned that because it was a gay/bi male site it did not feature any but that she would be writing a similar article here except that she needed to find a sufficient number of out female journalists too. I also felt kind of disapointed to read that. I mean didn't Germany recently have a top female current affairs reporter come out.

This does not mean that I want to see gay males featured here. Hell no! But I do think it outlines that we all want to see more lesbian and gay representation in the mainstream media, irrespective of gender. As afterellen and afterelton are sister and brother sites I thought it would be ok to comment on some sections of afterellen.

I understand and respect your opinions, and, to be honest, if AE had stated that it was a female only site, I would be happy and understand why I cannot join. I support female only, people of color only spaces as necessary in order to fight oppression. But when i say the "gay" and "male" options in the account section i assumed that everyone was allowed. But to prove to you that I am not insufferably arrogant, or have a huge sense of self importance and that I have no intention of suppressing women's opinion, I will not comment on afterellen from now onwards. I believe I am a sensitive person and if thats what people want, I'm cool with it.

 

Hey there incurablygay!

First, thank you for your comments. They are an interesting read and it is clear that you have given a lot of thought to them. As for not posting again, please reconsider. It is unfortunate that you are being made to feel unwelcome here, doubly unfortunate that this is being allowed to happen on a moderated site, and trebly unfortunate that it is happening on a site that should be encouraging diversity. Especially since you have, at no point, attempted to dominate the discussion, as per the critiques of your presence.

You are correct, this is not a "women's only" site, just as Afterelton.com is not "male only". This site is predominently female, to be sure - but not exclusively. As such, you should be welcome to post here, just as women are welcome to post at Afterelton.com.

I hope you will continue to post, especially on topics such as this one, which is, after all, kinda bout you and not about those who are giving you grief.

I have read the comments written in this forum and I must say that I have not been able to find anything that is offensive or should make someone feel unwelcome.  I, amongst others, am just stating my opinion and I am entitled to do so.  That is what a forum is all about.  We don't all think the same thing!  Nothing that has been said has been directed at a specific individual and therefore should not be taken personally by anyone.

I encourage diversity and as I said before I am not a man hater.  In fact I have some wonderful gay friends, however I still stand by what I said.  Yes this is a moderated sight but what kind of world are we living in if my opinion causes such a fuss??  The fact that it has been suggested that these comments should not be allowed on this website is ridiculous.

No explosion.  No one worrying about your opinions *shrugs shoulders* Perhaps if your words were turned around and incurablygay was posing those opinions towards you, there may be offense taken.  I stick by my comments regarding incurablygay..he is insightful, intellegent and articulate.  This subject is directly involving the post made by miss chatelaine and she valued his insight.  The title of the thread afterall is Gay Men.  So why doesn't everyone just relax.  You can read what he writes or choose not to, he hasn't insulted anyone.  We can read what you write or choose not to.  What a novel idea.   

I admit, I love AfterElton. It's hilarious, the articles are funny, and while I'm gay, I like reading about gay men too. Jim Verraros has an American Idol vlog there! And of course some people have the right to say that they'd rather a sort of man-free space in which to discuss things, but I think the point of this particular thread was just for anyone who liked gay men (straight women, gay women, gay men, anyone!) to celebrate them and well, just admit liking them. Well, it was, because I started it. heh. Though of course, if a straight man was to come on and say they liked gay men as much as I do, I think I would be a bit suspicious too.

 Anyway, my point is that I think there's no need for man-hating (not that there has been a lot, please don't get me wrong) on this site - I think it just sort of perpetuates the idea that a lot of people have that lesbians are freaky radical feminist lesbians. Before I'd discovered AfterEllen, I swear that's what I thought most lesbians in the West were like - mad Andrea Dworkin/Catherine McKinnon bra-burning man-hating lesbians. Which of course now I find out they're not, because lesbians are lovely. :) But to say things like "After all, as a gay woman, I don't really care what men think!" or "Men tend to dominate conversations, even gay men", I do find it as a gay woman a bit insulting.

I don't think AfterEllen is an exclusively female space, it's a site about "Lesbian and Bisexual women in Entertainment and the Media", and why should only gay women be interested in women gay and bisexual visibility in media? This isn't some sort of secret society where you have to know the secret handshake in order to get in - for all you guys know, I could be a fifty year old straight man who hates lesbians and is here to sabotage the site by ratting you out to the conservative Christians. And who's to say I'm not? mwahahaha. But again, this isn't an exclusively women's-only site. Men are fully allowed to come on here, as Malinda's said, and if they, like incurablygay, just hang around and don't talk endlessly about gay issues, then why should we care? People are people. It's horrid to see an already marginalised group trying to marginalise others. We already get that so much in other aspects of society.

And one last thing, I agree with Leibug - this thread is titled "Gay Men", for christ's sake! What else do people expect coming in here? I hope people don't hope for an anti-men, gay-bashing type discussion. Okay, I'll get off my high horse now.

I guess I should start by saying that I welcome anyone's comments and opinions on AE that encourage positive and honest discussion. I believe that a lot can be gained by the lesbian/bi women's community by allowing others to participate. However, I can understand the position of not understanding why a man would be interested in this site. I don't think it is because of some universal male egocentrism though. It is moreso idea that this is a site about women for everyone. I question the opposite: why more friends of the lesbian/bi community don't participate in an open site? Again, I know that the answer is obvious, but really?There really aren't that many men on this site gay or straight anyway, so I can't really see it affecting much, especially when we(women) all have differing opinions anyway. What's one more coming from a person who is respectful?

Again, I understand the idea of questioning the motives of any man that would join and comment on this site, but I think that our moderators do a fine job of weeding the disrespectful ones out and so it doesn't really bother me.

But back to the thread topic...I love all of my gay guy friends and find them adorable.

Okay. No one asked me, but here's what I'm seeing.

Someone started a thread about gay men. A gay man responded, in a post that was at least as much about lesbians and lesbian love and just how neat he thinks we all are, as it was anything to do with gay men, and instead of saying, 'oh hey, cool, we have a respresentative of "the other side" here to give his perspective,' people start wringing their hands about the threat of men coming to dominate the discussion and asking him to justify his interest in the website. It's weird.

I understand the fear of losing a site that's been a haven for lesbian/bi women, having it turn into one more male-or-straight dominated entertainment website. But to me it seems like there's such an obvious gap between allowing the occassional (polite, thoughtful) male voice to join in the discussion and allowing our voices to dominated and drowned out by men that I can't even understand how one could be seen as the harbinger of the other.

I mean, I'm a lesbian, but sometimes, I *gasp* read the bisexual forum. Not because I'm interested in forcing myself into the conversation and eventually dominating it, but because I'm kind of intersted in perspectives and experiences that aren't my own, and in gaining a broader understanding of the LGBT community outside of the one niche I happen to occupy. I personally think it's commendable if incurablygay wants to do the same.

I can see both sides.......  In my opinion, I think what xena was saying was more of a generalist opinion rather than being specifically about an individual - in this case incurablygay. I don't think I read anywhere in that post where she was being personal about someone. 

I also think it IS good that diversity is embraced on this site - be it gender, identity, orientation, race or whatever.  And let's be honest, men CAN have the odd good idea or opinion :)

But, I can also understand the frustration of assuming a Lesbian/Bi site is just that, and yet invariably men turn up!  Whether they are supportive of us or not!

I like watching 2 gay guys have sex as much as I like worms infest a healthy, ripe apple. In other words it's gross. I don't watch movies where straight couples have sex because it involves watching a naked guy so why would I have interest in watching 2 guys getting it on. Its disgusting and vomit inducing.

As for having gay guys on here, I don't understand why they have to post comments and why they can't be content with just reading articles or whatever. I totally agree with xenagabnut and I don't think she was generalizing but pointing out some obvious facts. I share some of the frustration that Wup has. We don't need a testosterone fuelled invasion of this important site by gay guys. If they want to be supportive they can launch their own site for that. They don't need to redefine the meaning of this site.

As for incurablygay, he has offered hardly anything to this site. I've read the boring and not so substantial comments he has posted. His endlessly groveling and sychophantic comments about Hillary Clinton in the politics thread are enough for me to feel suspicious about his sexual orientation. If Hillary Clinton becomes president I'm sure incurablygay won't mind being her personal intern (or sexual slave for free.) After all it'll be her perfect chance to get back at Bill. Most straight women have the hots for gay men, so I'm sure she won't mind. And for a truly mutually satisfying relationship she can double up as his fag hag. That way they're both benefiting. 

I don't need guys to dominate every part of my life and that includes gay guys. In fact, if lesbians were more active and disregarded the gay male aspect of the movement we would have greater rights than we have now. Its the gay guys who are holding us down. Most people have nothing against lesbians but they have issues against gay men. For whatever reason, perhaps a perception they engage in more anal sex, I don't know. The word "fag" is used as more of an insult than any word synonymous with lesbian.

This site is for women only and I agree with xenagabnut and gab. I find it kind of sad that so many of you are willing to forsake your fellow lesbians in order to support a gay male intruder who is clearly in the wrong. Who cares if it was directed at incurablygay or not? His clearly in the wrong and has brought it upon himself by commenting here. I don't see any other gay males that have displayed the audacity he has.

Something I've noticed about gay men's vs. gay women's culture, is that gay men seem to have a lot of female icons (ie Barbra, Liza, Madonna, Bette Davis movies, etc) and seem to gravitate towards female dominated professions (ie Fashion, the beauty industry, etc). Plus it's very common for gay men to have a lot of female friends of any sexual orientation.

 

Whereas gay women's culture seems to skew to be about women exclusively or female separatism. I see that reflected in this thread.

 

I don't see anything wrong with incurablygay's comments and hope he doesn't feel he has to stop posting.

Wow.  that's about all i've got.  i find no reason for gay men not to be welcome here, just like i feel like i am welcome to wander around an post on afterelton.  in a world where we already face distrimination, is it really necessary to discrimate against our own?  seriously.

 and on a side note, i love Queer as Folk.  those boys are hot, and their sex scenes are even hotter.

Amy M, whatever your noting is because lesbians are more independent than gay males. We don't need role models of the opposite sex to make up for our insecurites and any deficiences we have. Women have a tendency to help other women, while guys are hierarchial and overly more competitive.

I forgot to mention that incurablygay should include going down on hillary clinton as  one of the sexual services he'll be providing. Straight women don't get that often so i'm sure one of incurablygay's "idols" will be immensely pleased. If you need tips, I'm not sure i'll have time to offer any but you can google it, or some of your friendly lesbian friends here. Or most relevant of all for you, you can ask the lovely ladies on the bisexual thread to help you out. I'm sure they won't mind. After all, you're mostly into the same type of the things, right?

I like gay guys.. :) I like seeing 2 gay guys hand by hand on the street, everytime I see that I'm like 'awww cute!' but I think it's because they are same sex couple, not because they are guys, because my reaction is the same when I see a lesbian couple :)

I love listening to my (gay guys) friends' stories with other guys LOL they are great, I like their points of view on some things.. and going to bars / parties with them is just.. crazy! :D ( but, see? now I may be falling into those stereotypes again..)

The thing is.. I like gay guys, and I like straight guys. I can get along with both.. not because I'm a lesbian it means that I hate men or that I can't relate with them somehow or being interested in their relationships. ^^

 

 

my best friend is a gay man, we have lived together for 5 years.  i often show him things on this site and i do look at after elton.  infact the first series of torchwood was recapped by our very own bad machine and it is a lesbian who recapps project runway on there.  i myself have no proble with incurablygay posting here and find his views very well informed.

i’m a little stunned by some of the comments here. i have absolutely no problem with incurablygay being here.

an issue we are all aware of in the LGBT community is intolerance. the intolerant ego (certain politicians, neo-cons, and far religious right) implies that their own subjective feelings are seen as the absolute truth, and any deviation from that is wrong. (in other words, what they think is “disgusting” IS disgusting.) they have made intolerance a value. i personally don’t want to be that way—with folks who's interests and preferences are different than mine.

i am happy to coexist with the rest of humanity—and if a straight woman, gay man, straight man...etc. want to post thoughtful, supportive comments here, i would hope they’d be welcome.

No, this is not a site for women only.  It is geared towards lesbian/bisexual women, but it is not 'women only'. 

If you guys want to debate men being on the site and posting, do it in one of the AE-related subfolders.  Your opinion against men being here won't change one thing though, so it would not be a productive discussion anyway.

_________

I don't want to see anymore comments like this here. 

For God's sake you sound like Fred Phelps. Sickening.

_________

 I read some of the post and I have to ask what the hell are you girls thinking????

At one pont or another I been awaing random qustions about if Bacon took the world would you move to join the restices to free are mexican frends.

I can't bevile that there are so many hiporcts here. We all been hasted on at one point in are lives or another weather we know it or not. Or have you forgotn what's it like to be hated on for who we are. I can't bevile the things I ve been reading. We are not here out of sympathy. We are here out of Emathey. I will be damed if thir are words of hate spoken from are own gruop of men and wemen.

To all of you who spoke against the haters. I thinkyou becues thir should be no way in hell that the bacon should win with hipocracy.

The angery lipercon is done venting now=)

I find myself disappointed by comments on this thread. I absolutely support free discussion and freedom to express one's opinion, but when done in the vicious manner in which it was done by some is inexcusable.

It is one thing to have the opinion that men should not be allowed on this site, but an entirely different thing when you begin to insult those of the opposing opinion.

Wow!!!! It is amazing how bigotry can exist within a group that is already disrimminated against so much. As an African American bisexual woman it is absolutely perplexing to experience this throughout life. Do you really think it is a good idea to alienate those who befriend us as queer women because of their gender or sexual preference?

I hope that in the future discussions like these can take place without verbal abuse.

And ... by the by- Rhianna

there are quite a few differences between gay men and bisexual women. However, I guess I can take pride in your attempt to insult a large group of people with that cheap shot. In the process you made yourself look unbelievably hypocritical and...shall I say misinformed?

Not saying that you are, but your comments were offensive, repulsive, and completely tactless. Take care to represent yourself and point of view better in the future. People will never hear or comprehend your ideas if all they hear is garbage being spewed at them and their friends.

 

Have a happy day everyone!

 

 

I just want to thank all the people here for their supportive and encouraging comments. And all those who sent me messages telling me not to be discouraged or intimidated. Before I joined here I was kind of hesitant. Like in many aspects of my life, I felt hesitant and afraid of rejection. But i thought the rewards of being part of this community, meeting so many wonderful people and making great new friends would be worth it. And I was right. I've never felt like i fit 100% anywhere. Whether it be the gay male community, the greater LGBT community, or the straight mainstream. There were always parts of me that felt like they weren't accepted. But I really like this site and the people here, I feel like I can express both sides of me here..especially the usually suppressed more feminine side.

I'd also like to thank all those people who've trusted me enough to add me to their buddylist. Most people ive reached out to for friendship here have accepted me and that is a wonderful feeling. I can't ask for more. I'd  also like for any people reading this, whether gay and straight, or female and male, to know that Afterellen is a very friendly, welcoming and accepting site for everyone as all the positive messages towards me have shown.

A lot of us face hate and discrimination in real life and its always great to come to LGBT online sites, which can act as a refuge from such hate, even if only for a few minutes before we enter the big, bad world again. Just kidding..about the big, bad world bit. So I guess i understand why some people would not want someone like me, really different, on this site. But i'd like for all of you to give me a chance. I promise that i'll be a valuable member here.

And i have to confess that as well as coming to read all the great stuff here..I have also come here to make more lesbian/bi female friends. because you rock. :) I have a couple of lesbian/bi women friends in real life, but, as you know, you can never have enough. Besides, the internet is kind of the most risk free way to make friends  because you don't have to face rejection in reality. Also I think, as ive mentioned before, i believe, in my personal experience, the friendships between lesbian (and bi) women and gay men are kind of the most coolest friendships you can have. With no chance of anything else interfering. I care about all my lesbian/bi friends and they care about me in a brotherly/sisterly way and we always watch out for each other. So i think its a very special friendship bond that is very unique.

Damn..that was long. But unfortunately for all of you.. you'll have to read a lot more of those...as i intend to hang around. ;)

One of my favorite friendship quotes from one of my favorite writers.

George Eliot:

What do we live for, if it is not to make life less difficult for each other?