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Pro life or Pro abortion/choice: Which belief is more supportive of gay rights? You'll be surprised.For some this may be a controversial issue but for me it is fairly straightforward. Abortion is wrong under all circumstances unless the life of the mother is severely endangered. Personally I'm happy to see the US Supreme court revisit the Roe vs. Wade decision and to see restrictions being placed on abortion in various areas such as South Dakota. I am one of a growing number of lesbians and gay people who are openly out and pro life. We are part of PLAGAL ( Pro life alliance of Gay and Lesbians) and we believe being pro life is not contradictory to gay rights but rather compliments it. Human rights start when human life begins. If you haven't heard of us yet you soon will as we are active participants of pride marches and we have branches all over the US. http://www.plagal.org/ Are there any other pro lifers out there? And for those who adhere to the pro abortion/choice (both words are synonymous for me) philosophy why do you believe that this is more in line with gay/womens rights when the opposite is true? Before jumping to conclusions I suggest you read the following. http://www.plagal.org/op-ed/dubson3.html Heterosexual atrocity is not a gay right Lesbians and gay men who are pro-life often are asked, "How can you be gay and be against abortion?" The counter question, of course, is that, "How can anyone be gay and be for abortion?" Why have so many gays and lesbians decided that abortion rights are something they should support? Supposedly, this support is based on Roe v. Wade. The Roe v. Wade ruling interpreted the ambiguous language of the Ninth Amendment to mean that the decision to terminate a pregnancy is protected by a newly enlarged right to privacy. But for lesbians and gay men this privacy right is irrelevant. While the 1973 Supreme Court ruled that abortion was a constitutionally protected privacy right, the 1986 Supreme Court ruled that consensual homosexual relations were not. Putting aside this illusion, to be pro-abortion is to be anti-gay. The fact that the religious and the political right are both anti-abortion and anti-gay is simply an expected inconsistency in an already warped agenda, as is the pro-gay posturing that trickles down from the upper echelons of the pro-abortion feminists. This society is almost totally pro-abortion and anti-gay because the ultimate force at work in both cases is heterosexism! Why do abortions occur? They occur because heterosexual men and women engage in sexual relations without taking appropriate precautions, without having respect for each other (particularly male for female), without having respect for the life they're creating -- because of the passion of the moment. But could it be more than just passion? Could it be also the force of heterosexism that, as it punishes homosexuals for being homosexual, demands constant proof of heterosexuality? Consider the following: "Hey, Gloria, I want you, baby. Lets do it. What's the matter? Are you a Lezzie?" So she gives in, she gets pregnant, and she gets an abortion. (And probably lodges a sexual harassment claim en route to the clinic.) Is that a victory for gay rights? "Listen, girlie, if you don't put out for me, I'm going to take what I want from you now right here and now." So he takes, she gets pregnant, and she gets an abortion. Is that a victory for gay rights? Heterosexual intercourse in our heterosexist patriarchy has always been seen as a man's right, his privilege, his proof of masculinity. Males are encouraged to sow their wild oats to prove their heterosexuality to themselves, to their friends, to their families, to their women, to their society, and that proof can take on a multitude of forms -- coercion, sexual harassment, rape. The same group of men that will beat up a man who openly, honestly, sincerely loves another man will slap a buddy on the back for a vigorous, resourceful, and "well done" seduction of a woman. Abortion is at the other end of the process. When the force of heterosexism has led to irresponsible or violent heterosexual sex, abortion is the "solution" which makes the "problem" go away. It allows the force of heterosexism to not only go unchecked, but be reinforced. After twenty hideous years of over a million abortions performed each year in this county, nobody, Nobody, NOBODY has criticized or questioned the role of heterosexual intercourse or anti-gay heterosexism in those numbers. The fact that abortion is presented as a "Woman's Right" is the biggest irony of all. Far from advancing the cause of women, abortion on demand has hurt their cause by reinforcing male lust and sexism, the very things Feminism opposes. Men still get away with it, and women are still the ones who endure the trauma of the procedure and life with its painful memories. While pro-choice rhetoric likes to paint an image of happy, successful, sexually liberated women, totally in control of their Vogue/Cosmo/Playgirl lives, the reality is quite different. It's usually "No-Choice" rather than "Choice." If this society really cared about women, we would not simply be arguing for legalized abortion; we would be arguing and working for the elimination of all unplanned pregnancies. But that requires a serious revision of our attitudes about heterosexuality and heterosexual intercourse, and the force of heterosexism will not tolerate that. As we continue to see our rights denied and the heterosexual atrocity of abortion protected, we are only fooling ourselves if we continue to support abortion as a gay right. Looking for proof? Consider the allegedly gay-supportive Bill Clinton. Before he got into office, he promised to lift the anti-gay military ban and create an AIDS Czar. We know what happened with the military debacle, and a Czar was not born in Christine Gebbie. And except for powerless platitudes, he has done powerful little to work for gay rights or to stand up against the religious right's assault. But from his first days of office, with almost no opposition, he worked to protect abortion clinics, condoned abortion in pre-natal counseling, gave the go-ahead to Frankensteinish fetal testing, and legalized tax funded abortions for those in the military. As of now, heterosexuals in the military can be open about their heterosexuality, they can enjoy heterosexual sex, procure abortions, and it's all okay, while gay people in the military must hide their identity, deny their sexuality, and remain celibate. Nowhere else can the inhumanity of America's pro-abortion/anti-gay ideology be seen so clearly. Pro-abortion is anti-gay; anti-abortion is pro-gay. The latter is the only logical, consistent, and moral position for us to take. But many of you may still remain unconvinced. You may still believe that there is some mystical, intrinsic connection between the pro-abortion and the pro-gay positions. If so, why is this connection not universally understood? In the old Soviet Union, where abortions were as common as breadlines, homosexuals were consistently rounded up, persecuted, and jailed for their homosexuality alone. In modern day Communist China, where they gun down protesting students in the capital, abortions are not only done on a regular basis, they're encouraged -- if not mandated -- by the government: the same government that condemns and forbids homosexuality, and sends those who are homosexual to labor camps to become heterosexual . . . or die.Closer to home, go to any abortion clinic, and when you see a sixteen year old girl sashay out, go up and ask her what she thinks of homosexuals and homosexuality. "O gross!" she'll probably bellow, the blood still warm on the insides of her thighs from her abortion. "That's disgusting." Asked her what she thinks of abortion, and she's likely to chime what every good brainwashed citizen does: "Every woman has the right to chose to do whatever she wants with her body." The mystical connection between abortion and gay rights is no more present in the minds of some of the world's most immoral, corrupt, and powerful leaders than it is in the minds of most of the heterosexual pro-abortion people in this county. No one has an abortion as a gesture of good will to the gay community!It is time that the gay and lesbian community woke up. Abortion is the shame of heterosexuality, the fuel of heterosexism, and the enemy of every homosexual everywhere. I have a challenge for all pro abortion/choice people here. I’d like some pro abortion/choice person to explain, if you can, how you can reconcile being gay and pro abortion/choice when a pro-life philosophy is obviously more consistent with gay rights. I want you to convince me that gay rights would be better served by being pro abortion/choice but I doubt you can. Submitted by SD (81 posts) on July 6, 2007 - 10:30am. |
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Um
Well, I've yet to hear of
Well, I've yet to hear of any convincing arguments from the pro-choice people. Just the usual repeated "women should be able to control their own bodies." Not if that control involves limiting the rights of another innocent human being.
I actually find PLAGAL to be the opposite and very advanced in their views. They actually realize all those aborted babies could be adopted by same sex couples. It's a win win situation and something all gay people should be supporting.
Propaganda?
as all people are, you are entitled to your opinion on this issue. i myself am neither for or against abortion, as it is something that i have never experienced. Anyway the point of this reply is to say that i was slightly irrated when reading this because it seems as if you are trying to use the struggles of homosexuality to support a completely different cause. Sure, you can compare the two issues, the rights and wrongs of the law etc. etc. but i really dont feel comfertable being encouraged to lend my support to something, or have my opinion warped just because i happen to be gay. Abortion is abortion, i would have the same outlook if i was straight and im sorry but i really dont appreciate what is being said here, as it strikes me as a rather sinister and sneaky way to garner support for a very complex topic.
f
Look your entitled to your
you are entitled to your own opinion, but..
I'll answer by saying...
Pro-life/anti-abortion activists are about limiting a woman's right to decide for herself what she believes is right for her to do. I'm a lesbian. I don't see how it supports my rights as a lesbian/woman/person with a spiritual belief that says it's ok to choose an abortion, to suddenly throw up my hands and say, "Wow, I can get gay rights from them if I simply give up my rights as a woman." You have the right to not get an abortion, I have the right to one. A complex debate from you with a simple solution: Freedom of Choice! Much peace....
"a little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants." Chuckles the Clown
Well freedom of choice
Well freedom of choice doesn't mean you go around limiting the choice of other humans. And a foetus is a human whether you want to believe that or not. Same-sex couples would have alot to gain from devious hetero couples not aborting unwanted children but placing them in adoption. It makes sense and we'd all be happy.
I'm still not convinced yet. In fact a number of lesbians have pm'd me showing their support and telling me about the hostile response they receive when they "come out" as pro life.
No hate here....
Women can be pro-life/anti-abortion and that is cool. No anger from me. It is your belief. I have a different one. I believe in a woman's right to choose for herself. And I do believe that a fetus is an evolving human unable to live outside the womb until a certain stage of development. No disagreement there either. But my spiritual belief is that we all choose our path before we are born and some even choose to experience that of an aborted fetus/unborn child. I believe we come to different "classrooms" for different experiences through different lifetimes. So you are never going to find an angle with me to convince me of something that I am not in conflict with in the first place. And your wording of "devious hetero couples" is disturbingly mean. You seem to think we are ignorant here at AE. I must say the women here are very insightful and can see beyond your words and see you for what you are and the game you are playing. Peace...
"a little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants." Chuckles the Clown
On the same wavelength
I totally agree with you Justlife. It's all about freedom of choice and women making decisions for themselves and being in control of their bodies.
Nothing against pro lifers at all but I don't think your views support what I believe in. But as long as we respect each other's beliefs I think we can all coexist peacefully.
humm
I don't know about the way the article went to tie in gay rights and abortion.. but i guess it's something to think about. I would like to see a far better argument on this cause.
However, despite what anyone says, I'll always believe abortion is wrong. Women who choose to have an abortion when their lives are not endangered don't look at all the facts, well most of the time. I feel that abortion is a convienent method to fix a "problem" therein lies the problem, people need to start looking at that child as just that a child who deserves the right to live, who may one day find a cure for a disease that's killing off people by thousands. Who knows what that child could become.
I've seen what effects abortion has on families, and I don't know if I would say completely ban it, I don't know what the solution is right now, but I do strongly believe that women and men alike should be more educated about abortion, parents need to stop threatening their little teenage kids and telling them that if they come home pregnant that they'll kill them, and people need to realize that there are other options.
Now that I think about it, I would have liked to see the argument about adoption and abortion pertaining to same sex couples. There are a lot of factors to consider on this issue, such as, if abortion were illegal, the number of children put into foster care etc. would significantly rise. Now, if that happened, would there be a stronger push to allow same sex couples to adopt and therefore should more gays be pro life? I think that's an issue to look at right there.
The microphone wet cuz my words like seduction -Lil Wayne
Thank you for your support
Thank you for your support Lanna. You are not alone. In fact many lesbians have pm'd me their personal support and it is for these women that I will continue to declare my pro life views without fear of hostility from the pro choice/abortion crowd.
I know the strain and stress abortion puts on young women. Giving them such a choice which is harmful does not help anyone at all. I would like to see more talk of adoptions and other methods which prevent abortion. I noted your point about adoption and same sex couples and I agree strongly with that.
Hopefully, the "pro choice" advocates will come to their senses and adopt the sensible position you have.
gay left-handed Amish folk
Hahahaha! Oh, this is just delicious.
PLEASE tell me this is plague-gal.org’s official slogan:
“Heterosexual atrocity is not a gay right”Yes, heterosexuality is truly an atrocity – right up there with the Holocaust. And being left-handed.
How I wish I had the time right now to go thru your argument more carefully – alas, there are pressing RL matters I must tend to.
So, quickly: the whole premise of your argument is faulty – positing abortion rights as a “gay-issue” versus a “women’s issue” is just.... well, insane. It’s like saying global warming is an Amish issue (ya know, as opposed to an “everyone” issue).
(that’s NOT to say abortion isn’t an issue for lesbians, as many of us have had sex with men and, obviously, have a vested interest in reproductive rights).
But first, these priceless quotes from one Mr. “Dubson-Sage”:
"Hey, Billy, are you getting any yet? Or are you a faggot?" So he coerces a girl into sex, she gets pregnant and gets an abortion. Is that a victory for gay rights?
"Hey, Billy, I want you to give it to me like a man. Or are you a faggot?" So he gives it to her, she gets pregnant and gets an abortion. Is that a victory for gay rights?
This is the kind of “logic” I've come to know and love from the Retarded Right - a twisted and fallacious way of equating rape with heterosexual/cultural pressures, and, by extension, abortion. Hee - and then tying it together somehow to make it a "gay issue." This is like Ann Coulter on crack.
If you guys really think heterosexuality and abortion are atrocities (and that the former is the cause of the latter), the solution is simple: kill all straight men, since that’s obviously where the problem lies.
Too bad there’s no more info on your “Mr. Dubson-Sage” – I’m a little curious about him.
And how interesting that out of 9 Plague-Gal Board Members, at least 6 are men (I guess “Jackie” could be either – then again, maybe s/he is a trannie, so you might wanna look into that. If s/he is still packing, then obviously “Jackie’s” a threat to fetuses everywhere. Undoubtedly, Jackie will be pressured to “prove his/her manhood,” which will make him/her run out and rape young women everywhere, sending them to abortion clinics in droves).
I love it when men (straight or gay) want to speak on behalf of women’s uteruses everywhere...
Your response, much more clever
I hate to disappoint you
I hate to disappoint you Zee, but no, that is not our official slogan. Our slogan is human rights begin at birth. Something far more concrete. By attacking our message and our articles you do not really prove your point. A number of lesbians have pm'd me about how hard it is to stand up as pro life in the gay community because of liberals like you. Just because your a left wing liberal does not mean you have to follow everyhing your liberal friends say and do. It's ok to think for yourself.
It's a shame you would rather support your devious heterosexual abortionist liberal friends than people in the gay community who would benefit from a pro life stance. I have indicated this in previous posts above. Gay men and transgenders who are forced to conform to society's expectations of sexuality also have much to lose when pro choice advocates get their way. Women (lesbian and straight) similarly are disadvantaged by a pro choice/abortion agenda which glorifies death over life. What would you do if a gay gene was discovered in the future and people aborted their children based on their sexual orientation. I'm sure that would make you pro life in no time.
I deliberately left out those Billy quotes because I felt they would be irrelevant to the women here. Though you'd be pleased to know that the wall you pro choice/abortion people have built around your devious activities is crumbling down. We at plague- gal.org are spreading the infection of our views all over the US. First, we'll chip away at the fortress that is Roe vs. Wade. Once we're done we'll strip back abortion legislation in all states till they reflect South Dakota. Abortion only when the mother's life is in danger. At the moment we've only been protesting outside abortion clinics warning young teenagers to prevent them from the murder they will unwittingly commit. They try to shield their faces and hide behind their parents, but that will not absolove them of the guilt and shame they will inevitably feel once they abort an innocent life. We will soon enter those abortion clinics and make it compulsory for all heteros who commit abortion to view ultrasounds of the body parts of past aborted foetuses. Then only can they make an informed decision about the consequences of their actions.
Straight men may be the causeof abortion but the person guilty for the crime is the woman. And there should be harsh penalties in place for women who commit this crime. Rape does not give you a right to abort. Why would you want a woman to suffer further through abortion after going through rape? I'd rather a nice gay couple be allowed to adopt the baby
Well, of course. We all know
Well, of course. We all know it's woman who brought all sin into the world so of course she is the real criminal! Btw, did you know that since a woman has more openings she is also more likely to be possessed by the devil! LOL!
"call me old fashioned but I prefer feminism that leaves a little something to the imagination!"
Making a joke about this
Making a joke about this very serious topic won't prove your argument. I'm not generalizing and calling women evil. Often its family, friends and the woman's male partner who put pressure on her to abort against her will. The ultimate decision however is for the woman to make. I don't think women are criminals as such, but the actions may be criminal due to whatever reason. Btw, I'm not very religious and my pro life view point comes from my belief in human rights for all and especially those who are most vulnerable.
First sign of
First sign of fanaticism...the loss of a sense of humour!
And just read on a bit. You will find plenty of arguments for which so far, your only counter arguments has been that we are just "liberals"!
And just wondering...clearly you are a professional in service of some "pro life"organisation so how does it pay? a job like that? Just curious as I am unemployed at the moment so can spend hours behind the computer and as many here know :) I am very good in being argumentative. Perhaps you can hook me up? Cheers!
"call me old fashioned but I prefer feminism that leaves a little something to the imagination!"
I'm picturing Rhianna with a tiny mustache under her nose...
Is anybody else? For some reason, I'm starting to feel the urge to goose-step and raise my arm in salute to her. I'm pretty sure my life may depend on it, in fact.
My goodness, I'm hoping she's getting paid and not spreading this blather for free.
Just want to say
Just want to say Gali that your brand of humour always makes me laugh, or at least smile. But then again I don't have much fanaticism inside me. Wait...does being a fanatical reader of AE count?
Anyway, I believe that even in situations of life and death (pun intended) one must not lose one's sense of humour.
Thanks! :) "call me old
Thanks! :)
"call me old fashioned but I prefer feminism that leaves a little something to the imagination!"
dude! are you for real? this
madandlovely i am wide awake
madandlovely i am wide awake and not afraid to voice my views. When I mean women I'm talking about straight women here, so obviously it doesn't involve you so why are you getting so worked up about it.
My views may be unusual for some in the gay community, most likely due to the fantasy liberal bubble you all live in. But they are actually shared by quite a lot of gay people hence the PLAGAL.
so because your not
Exactly. So when straight
Exactly. So when straight people stop interfering in my rights for adoption I'll consider not meddling in their right to commit hetero atrocities. But until that happens I reserve the right to believe what I want to.
All straight people may not be sheep, but some are. If they choose not to think for themselves and have unplanned pregnancies why should I have to compromise my beliefs of human rights to accomadate them.
i was refering to support
plague-gal
“I hate to disappoint you Zee, but no, that is not our official slogan. Our slogan is human rights begin at birth.”
I am disappointed, I won’t lie. But if your slogan really is “human rights begin at birth,” then women should be allowed to remove clumps of cells from their own bodies before birth, right? Like, months before birth?? After all, that’s what your slogan says.
I agree that babies are born with human rights (the key words here being “BABY” and “BORN.”). Embryos aren't babies. And I don’t believe an embryo has GREATER rights than me (i.e., “rights” that force me to carry it to term).
“Just because your a left wing liberal does not mean you have to follow everyhing your liberal friends say and do. It's ok to think for yourself.”
I know, I’m so transparent. It’s hard sometimes, all that “thinking for myself.” Thanks to you for giving me strength to go forth and be a sheep no more. God bless you, citizen!
“It's a shame you would rather support your devious heterosexual abortionist liberal friends than people in the gay community who would benefit from a pro life stance….”
Ok, who blew the whistle on all my “devious heterosexual abortionist friends”?? It was your friend Jackie, that damn trannie, right? S/he’s just pissed cuz I wouldn’t let shim fuck me.
(see, even typing this response to you is taking precious time away from all the abortions my friends and I were supposed to deviantly perform tonite. Damn you and your insidious pro-life/anti-women agenda).
“We at plague- gal.org are spreading the infection of our views all over the US. First, we'll chip away at the fortress that is Roe vs. Wade.”
I won’t argue that Roe v Wade is being chipped away at, tho it’s not because of you (or any pro-life/women-hating org). The majority of Americans support a women’s right to choose – it’s a minority of politicians and powerful religious groups largely responsible for the erosion of reproductive laws in recent years. And the Retard-in-Chief himself, Gee Dub, has made judicial appointments around the country to ensure that socially conservative judges will decide this issue.
“At the moment we've only been protesting outside abortion clinics warning young teenagers to prevent them from the murder they will unwittingly commit. They try to shield their faces and hide behind their parents…”
You’re right - you are spreading "the infection of your views" - your lies & misinformation around the country as you harass teenagers at clinics. As it’s been pointed, if you really cared about women, children, and reproductive rights, you’d be spending your time/energy trying to educate people about birth control or pressuring the govt to provide better prenatal and neonatal care/health coverage for women and children, or doing something USEFUL to actual prevent abortions. But maybe that’s too hard - I guess it’s easier to stand outside clinics and scream at young girls who are already scared.
“We will soon enter those abortion clinics and make it compulsory for all heteros who commit abortion to view ultrasounds of the body parts of past aborted fetuses”
Holy fucking shit - I know you can’t appreciate the total batshittery of your sentence, but others here can! I... I can’t wait to see how you’ll do this. How does one force heteros to look at aborted fetuses?
I picture a Clockwork Orange type thing – devices attached to the eyelids, while you flash the goriest images you can find across the screen. But why stop at ultrasounds? If you waved actual bloody fetuses around, it’d probably be more effective (you’d just have to decide whether to go with real fetuses or those plastic repros).
You’ve got a fetus in a jar, don’t you? You don’t even have to answer - I already know you do. I’ll bet anything you’re looking at it right now. It’s that Santorumesque freaky fetus fetish thing.
“Straight men may be the causeof abortion but the person guilty for the crime is the woman. And there should be harsh penalties in place for women who commit this crime.”
Ah, thanks for confirming this: “pro-life” is code for “women-hating.” The bottom line: orgs like yours simply want to control women’s right to have sex when and where they want, and with whomever they want. The “penalty,” in your book, should be as harsh as possible (of course only for the woman, the “person guilty of the crime”).
Once again, if you really gave a shit about children or babies (born and unborn) the answer would be better access to birth control/education. You’d be going after the pols and the bible thumpers instead of women and children. Or is that too logical? I mean, why teach kids anything or give them tools/knowledge to protect themselves when you can just lock them up instead?
I’ve looked at your website and it’s clear that you’re here to recruit women for your org. You’ve been a member for one day and this is the first and only thing you post?
People like you and plague-gal org are no different than Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist “Church” – you both try to harass and intimidate people, particularly people who are somewhat disenfranchised, people you perceive to be weak: teenagers, women, gays. Phelps rationalizes his bullying by saying it’s in his magic book. You rationalize it...however you rationalize it, I don’t really care.
I don’t have any use for my uterus, to be honest. It’s done nothing but bring me grief every month for 25 yrs but it’s MINE. You and your merry band of freaks will never tell me what to do with my body – you won’t tell my sister or my niece or my friends what to do with their bodies, I don’t care how many fucking fetuses you wave at us.
sideline!
Zee, how can I not expect much from you when you continue to put up brilliant responses like this?:)
"call me old fashioned but I prefer feminism that leaves a little something to the imagination!"
hmm?
Well, it’s a funny thing about disappointment. And the weight of all those expectations...
you sure you weren’t just a little jealous about my mod love? :)
Haha! I am way too proud to
Haha! I am way too proud to admit to that! ... Ooops! ;)
"call me old fashioned but I prefer feminism that leaves a little something to the imagination!"
Slight correction: PLAGAL slogan
Since most of your reply is built around a slight mistake I made, I feel it is important to correct it.
The PLAGAL slogan is actually that human rights begin when human rights start, thus the whole birth idea does not figure. I don't know why I made that error. The pro choice ideas must have been invading my mind, but I'm ok now.
Also you argue your case from a feminist perspective. If your interested there are many pro life feminist websites out there that would suit you.
http://www.feministsforlife.org
If you look at history the early American feminists were actually pro life and actually valued human life. Unfortunately, most feminist organizations today don't understand this and actually kick members out for their pro life viewpoint. We'll see how they feel when the tables turn against them.
http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/index.htm
Also, while you were browsing the PLAGAL site you may not have noticed that our President is actually an out and proud woman, so picking on "Jackie" whatever orientation she may be is harming your cause.
I never said anything about shaking real life foetuses at women, I'm talking about pictures and photos. It's similar to when a doctor shows a lung cancer patient pictures of their deteriorating lungs due to excess smoking. It's not the same as showing a real life lung.
Comparing me to Fred Phelps and the Westboro Church is unhelpful. While Fred and his gang preach hate, I preach tolerance and love for even the most vulnerable members of society. I'm not really big on protesting outside abortion clinics. I mean I've done it a couple of times for experience, but I prefer the candlelight vigils during pro life week to mourn the loss of so many innocent lives.
I don't see anything wrong with being a feminist, being a pro lifer and pro gay rights.
All my views are consistent with being for human rights.
Zee, basically you are my
You obviously feel very
You obviously feel very strong in your convictions. But in my opinion, the mere idea that gay rights and abortion rights or pro-life or whatever you want to call it, have any correlation with each other is illogical. And that article reads as a diatribe against heterosexuals, grossly unrelated to a very complex issue.
Buy hey, what ever rocks your boat.
I feel very strongly about
Uh, wait a minute. The
Uh, wait a minute. The only requirement for ME being gay, is that I drive a Subaru. And that’s a self-imposed rule.
Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it? Your “necessary requirement” statement alone discredited your argument even further.I believe that further
What I value is rights.
What I value is rights. Human rights. All human rights. The right to be free, the right to choose, the right to pursue happiness. Pro-living. The right to protect my life, live my life and end my life. How I live my life is one way out of millions of diverse ways. To lay one universal blanket of restriction (making abortion illegal) on my body or a rape victim’s body, or 14 year old’s body, or a poor woman’s body, or a Catholic’s body, or Muslim’s body, or a gay’s body, or a hetero’s body or whomever’s body and that body’s circumstances, is to violate all of our individual human rights. It doesn’t matter whether I agree with abortion or not, I totally agree with human rights.
And, it just so happens I am attracted to woman. A lot.
Proud to be pro-choice
What gives anyone the right to decide whether or not a woman should have an abortion.It's none of your business. It's not like women enjoy having abortions.It's one of the hardest decisions a woman has to make. Also, why would you force a women who has been raped to carry a child. Do you know how horrible that would be if the woman doesn't want the child and don't say well there is always adoption cause adoption in the U.S. is a joke.Also, I don't see how gay rights has anything to do with abortion. Also, I don't feel bad for being pro-choice, it doesn't mean I'm pro-abortion. I'm pro-prevention.Being pro-choice doesn't make me any less of a gay rights supporter than you.In fact I feel really insulted by this blog.
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."-Helen Keller
Why do you assume that I
Why do you assume that I would be pro choice just because I'm gay? Allowing abortions does not make it easier or good for the women concerned. Instead it forces her to go through the trauma of the procedure and succumb to pressure by family, friends and her partner rather than do what she wants to. Rape is terrible and there should be harsh penalties for the rapist, but it is selfish for the woman concerned to abort a life based on her own situation. It would just add to the trauma that she is already feeling.
Gay rights are connected to abortion. Anti gay people often talk about gay parents not having the usual mother and father role model thus being bad parents. Allowing same sex couples to adopt children from heteros who would otherwise abort would challenge this notion as being false. Gay rights are human rights and human rights involve all humans at all stages of development.
At least one third of those on the PLAGAL mailing list are lesbians, so it's not just males who feel strongly against abortion. In fact the president of the organization is a female. So obviously lesbians out there do feel strongly about the issue even if they do not make their views apparent to those in the gay community.
I can't believe that I am even deigning to reply, but-
OK, I don't think I'm misunderstanding your statements in the reply above, but I'm having a hard time following your logic as is, so here goes.
1- I don't think the poster above you stated or implied in any way that she thought you would be pro-choice because you're gay.
2- Are you actually implying that abortion is a gay issue because if abortion rights become more limited than they already are, that legislation will suddenly just materialize that allows same sex couples to adopt the would-be terminated embryos? Because seriously, there are innumerable embryos who have actually been born into this world already who could use a parent or two right now- I think they deserve more attention, care and energy than an insentient bundle of cells. Please seriously consider first educating yourself on same-sex adoption rights (or lack thereof) and working on getting gay couples adopting before worrying about limiting women's rights over their own bodies.
3- I noticed you use of the term "harsh penalty" a couple times throughout this thread. I would be curious to know what that means to you, for both women who choose to terminate pregnancies and perpetrators of sexual assault, and I would also like to know how the harsh penalty will be of benefit to them and/or to society. What's the point of the harsh penalty? Rehabilitation? Retribution? I have a hard time even discussing the concept of "penalties" for women who choose to terminate, especially when it's in the same context as perpetrators of sexual assault. My brain really just can't wrap itself around that.
What would you do if a gay
Would I still be pro choice?
I think that homophobia meeting with eugenics (although eugenics isn't exactly what you're referring to here, because the motivation is to spare pain rather than improve upon the species, but it's close) is an absolutely horrifying thought. However, here's the thing. I am a woman. I am also queer. Sex selective abortion, wherein typically a female fetus is terminated in order for the parents to try again for a male fetus, occurred and probably still occurs in countries like India, China, Taiwan and Japan. Their gender balance is now skewed, as you can imagine.
So, if I am a female who knows that other females are aborted just because they are female, and I am still pro choice, what do you think my answer to your question would be, based on my response above?
I would never consider limiting women's rights as a tactic in the fight against homophobia. One step forward, two steps back.
For the record, I am pro choice but at this point in my life would not choose to abort a fetus. I can't definitively say the same for my 15 year old self, or myself when I had absolutely no money and was rationing my peanut butter and jam, or if I had been raped, or already had 3 kids... Or anything. I would not want to make that incredibly difficult choice for anyone other than myself. I have no problems with the concept of someone, gay, straight, bi, queer, two spirited, trans, I could go on and on, being pro life. They don't need to go off and get abortions. To me, it's like gay marriage. If you don't like it, don't get one. I even can respect the pro-lifers who want to control my body- I admire their conviction when it is based on emotional reasoning- that is to say, if they genuinely believe that life begins at conception , and have some solid ideas about how pregnancies can be prevented, ways to get money, ways to change the law to make that happen, so that women have more control over their bodies, not less. I don't see a lot of that in your argument.
So I think I answered your question. I am still curious to know about your concept of harsh punishment.
I am a lesbian, and I would
lesbian without borders
What would you do if a gay
I'd like to think that by
lesbian without borders
Ha!
If men had uteruses, abortion rights would not even be an issue. But that would mean they had vaginas, too. I guess they would just go around trying to f*ck themselves. I drink too much, sometimes.
Pro-gay and Pro-choice, but not related
I agree with one of the above posters who thinks the two positions are unrelated.
I happen to be pro-gay rights, and I also happen to be pro-choice. I do not think that I am pro-choice because I am gay. I am ALSO pro-elimination-of-the-need-for-abortion. I do realize that that often gets ignored because it's hard to say you should be allowed to have one and at the same time say lets avoid having them. But it's clear that abortions do not come without risk or angst to the woman involved, so obviously I'd prefer if no women felt the need to have them. That said, if they do, I don't feel it is my place to tell them they cannot, because I do not think it is murder. My concern about the damages of abortion are to the woman, so if she deems it an acceptable risk that is her own choice.
I think part of the reason that so many gay people are pro-choice is that we tend as a whole to be less religious, or less orthodox if we are religious, and being anti-choice lies squarely on the idea that there is something special about a group of human cells that could become a human. That something special comes from religion.
I think also, as a gay person, the idea that I should have control over my own body resonates with me. I should have the choice to have sex with a woman, or a man, and nobody else should be able to tell me that I can't do that.
I don't think abortion and
Meh
Calling those who are Pro-Choice: Pro-Abortion. I am Pro-CHOICE I am NOT Pro-Abortion. There's a difference.
It's akin to calling someone anti-American because they are against the war. When will pro-life people realize how they hurt their cause by labeling people as they see fit?
It's not my place to make decisions for other women. Gay rights has absolutely no bearing on the abortion debate anyway.
If the labeling is true it
If the labeling is true it doesn't hurt any cause at all. Gay rights and abortion are linked in many ways, here's one. What would you do if a gay gene was discovered? What would you do if a number of homophobic parents decided to abort the foetuses of babies who would allegedly be gay for fear of the taunts and inequality they would face in life? Would you still be "pro choice" then?
Forgot to add...
Because I do not think that my pro-gay rights and pro-choice positions are related, I do agree with one thing the author says - it's totally fine for gay people to be anti-abortion. Honestly, if you really believe that immediately after conception an embryo is fully human, it's the only consistent position to have. That issue is what I would argue with, of course, but if I can't change your mind on that then I do not expect you to agree with me on abortion.
Also I thought of a great parallel to the pro-choice but anti-abortion position. Adoption. I obviously think that adoption should be allowed. However, in a perfect world, it would not exist. All children would be raised by their own parents. That world will never exist, so because it does not, I think adoption is sometimes necessary. Same with abortion. In a perfect world, abortion would not be necessary. Women would all use contraception or abstain, and nobody would be raped. However, that is not the world we live in, so abortion is sometimes necessary.
The position I DO think is self-contradictory is that of anti-abortion and anti-contraception. The best way to eliminate the need for abortions is to ensure that contraception is used properly and there are no unwanted embryos created.