I'm open about being an Atheist and a lesbian.

I used to attend church regularly but once I started questioning my sexuality, I knew my crush wouldn't accept me. Even when I did attend church regularly, I always felt doubt that god was real. When I decided to stop attending church, it was mainly because I knew the rejection I'd receive once people knew I was a lesbian.
Later it was more about Atheism.
I feel more strongly about my Atheism, since more people are likely to accept me because I'm a lesbian but being an Atheist....eh...not so much, at least not until they get to know me and see I am an ethical and moral person.

*Courtney**

Good topic! There is far too little discussion of such matters in the gay community. Since so many gay people have had such bad experiences with the religion in which they were brought up, they often get defensive and angry, not to mention dismissive, when the subject is mentioned.

 Being ignorant on such matters, however, does nothing but empower those who regularly use religion against us. Many of the so-called "christian-right" people are fond of parroting certain parts of the bible, but have a very poor working knowledge of the book as a whole. Every gay person should get to know the bible, as, in this country at least, it's at the root of every bit of crap that's flung our way. The only way we can counter said crap is to know our bibles.

Personally, I was brought up catholic, and it was a big part of my childhood. By my latter teen years, I began to realize that there was just too much about catholicism that didn't add up for me, and I ceased practicing. The lack of religion left a big hole in my life, and for many years, I waffled on matters of God, religion, faith, etc. After much internal debate, I arrived at the conclusion that I was a Deist. This is someone who believes in God, and that God created the universe, but takes no active role therein. It's basically a belief in free will, as opposed to a participatory God that has a hand in earthly matters, and would allow the proverbial bad-things-to-happen-to-good-people.

In the last few years, however, I've come to regard myself as more of a non-theist. To be honest, the "christian-right", and our current administration in Washington, both of whom wield enormous power and both of whom claim divine guidance, have gone a long way toward ruining God for me. These people are just evil, and I have a hard time believing a benevolent, self-respecting God would allow them to operate in his name. So I guess I'm back to waffling a bit on questions of faith.

As to the matter of homosexuality and religion: I have absolutely no doubt that homosexuality is in-born. When I see a lovely lady, or often an even less-than-lovely lady, it turns my head, and it's not something over which I have any control. It's a natural, spontaneous reaction, and it doesn't occur when I look at a man. Therefore, I believe without a doubt that I was born gay, and it would be unnatural to ignore, or worse, try to "change" it. If God does exist then he made me gay, and who am I to second-guess him?

Sorry to be so long-winded, but this is obviously a subject on which I've done a good amount of thinking. Has anyone reached similar conclusions? Or different ones? I'd be interested to know.

A friend of mine is an atheist and has persuaded me to read the following debate, so that I can better understand his views. The two men (Sam Harris and Andrew Sullivan) are intelligent and articulate and this interview may be of interest to some of you (if you haven't seen it already):

The debate between an atheist (Sam Harris) and a Christian (Andrew Sullivan)

I'm sure someone...somewhere on one of the religion forums has mentioned Beliefnet.com, but if not...those of you who have an interest in world religions will find a wealth of information there (and I do believe that they have just about every major world religion represented on the site).

They also include secular philosophies such as atheism.

By the way...I am not an atheist, but I still find that this debate is quite interesting.

Oops! I accidentally linked Part 2 of the debate, but I fixed the link, so that it connects to Part 1.

The first part is much more interesting.

Why did I add this post (since I'm not an atheist)?
Well...I love good debate/"intellectual sparring" and this is quite interesting.

 Click here.

"Brains grow love."--H. H. the Dalai Lama

http://www.myspace.com/ysubassoon

http://comadotcom.blogspot.com

when i was in high school, i went church with my friends for chrisitianity and i thought it make sense to me then little by little, i noticed that i don't agree with what bible said. later on i decided to stop going to church and the church members came and i said, i don't feel like going and they said, huh? then later on she would bring one of her friends and try to put fear in me by going to church. i thought, screw them. then when i went to cu boulder (i know what most of you people are thinking when you read "boulder") and i finally opened my eyes to see what is going on this earth. that's when i realized that i'm gay and after i graduated, i made my decisions that i refused to let people telling me what to do with my life. i am not slave to religion, politics, and government. when i put that in my thought, i felt so peace and so freedom and that's when i decide that is how i want to live. i'm atheist, anti-politics (i'm support for being honesty, politics is opposite to that) and don't support government because i see that they cover up many many events that they don't want people in public to know what's going on, and i lost trust in them. i admit i don't support capitalism because the gap between rich and middle class with poor class is getting wider (in u.s.) and wider and i fear that would lead to civil war someday. i believe everybody should treat the same and respect instead of judging other people who are different from them. i became fierce support of human rights: deaf, gay/lesbian, women and people because we have u.s. constitution saying that we have freedom of choice to do what we want to do. if we don't have u.s. constitution, i would not talking to you guys because i would fight to death to defend human rights for all people.

susie

still crazy after all these years

loghann,

i have not heard about atheist league of vassar college. is it in U.S.?? i wonder if there is website for "The Godlessness Quarterly"?? Bake Sale for Your soul?? sounds interestig to me.

susie

I have been an atheist ever since I was old enough to think rational thoughts. My parents, even though being far for perfect, at least had the sense to not stick my head full of religious nonsense. They didn't actively discourage it either, but when I started to get older and was able to make up my own mind, I discarded the whole notion of religion.

I have never been a religious person.  I remember when I was about 4 years old, I had a nightmere that I died and I asked my mother what happened when I died and she told me that I go to heaven (the first and last time my parents told me anything remotely religious).  When I was 6, I came up to her and said, "Bullshit, what really happens?"  I wanted her to give me an answer, but I never got one I was satisfied with, which deeply worried me for a while.  I enjoy myths and theology as literature, but nothing more.

Having said that, however, I have no lack of respect for people with religion.  People have all kinds of different beliefs and it shouldn't matter to me if a person believes in God.  I am open in my opinions and would never try and force my ideas upon anyone; doing that would be just as bad as people who try and push religion onto you.

Oh, and I found that debate really interesting.  Thank you ~H~

I sometimes tend to be agnostic, sometimes atheist. Depends on how cynical I'm feeling. I was brought up to in a religious vacuum (i.e., religion is not discussed or touched upon at all in my house), so I've always had the sense that when you die, your consciousness ceases to exist and you become recycled material (eventually). And then I learned in Anthropology 101 that religion is a function of society, and serves for social unity and congregation of the like-minded, and that was kind of the final nail on the coffin.

However, though I don't practice it, I agree with the Buddhists' de-emphasis on the importance of self. We are all a part of nature, not above it.

I guess the proper term for my own beliefs would be 'agnosticism' .... though I don't formally adhere to any belief, group, or mantra. I consider myself as spiritual.

I was raised by a Christian Scientist mother, and an ex-Catholic father. My father had absolutely nothing to do with any religious force in my life - except to hand me Shakespeare's verse. Christian Science was actually as good of a base as I could hope to have, spiritually. I didn't get the hell, fire, and brimstone that many Christians get, and so in that way, my coming out was relatively easy. The problem that I came to have with CS was that the paritioners saw homosexuality as a spiritual error, like cancer, and could be healed. Once I was able to come to grips with a better portion of my sexuality, and therein, my individuality - I came to realize that for me - religion takes really good ideas and distorts them to the point of absurdism.

The idea that I needed to be "healed" was in direct conflict with the primary ideals of Christian Science - that the best part of who we are as human, is our spirit - that our spirit is free of pain, of disease, of death. That it is inherently perfect and unique and SEXLESS. So if my soul is sexless, why would I need to be healed by loving another sexless soul? Anyway ... I could probably debate points like this on and off for awhile. But I do believe there is something higher than myself. I don't pretend to know what it is, and I don't pretend to worship it.

The closest I've been able to define it, is seeing it in nature.

Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates. [Mark Twain]

Lifeisdandy--No, you're not the only one who believes in God here.  I wasn't raised religiously and have probably attended church services 20 times at most in my whole life.  But I lost my mother when I was a teenager.  Before that, I was your average angry teenage atheist.  But that experience changed my outlook.  I now believe in God but feel that it is more of a psychological thing.  God gives me comfort in the gray area where all of my answers are just "I don't know."

So to be exact, I believe in God but absolutely LOATHE established religion.  I do not recognize any organized religion.  God is what I make of him/her and my relationship with him/her is not based on anything but myself.  It's taken me a long time to get here and I'm happy to be a proud agnostic.

As far as homosexuality goes--I think that religion has for too long been used as a tool for separation.  I am one of the few people who feels like I am gay through nurturing, not all through nature (although I'm sure there were some biological aspects).  I feel that homosexuals have been used as scapegoats throughout history and used incorrectly.  People don't like things that are different from themselves.  That's why so many take Christianity/Islam, etc. and use them against homosexuals.  If Christians took Leviticus seriously, then there would be a whole lot less of lovemaking, especially between heterosexual couples.  So, I do not feel that Christian ideals about homosexuality are correct.  If people would just remember Jesus' two main ideas: love thy neighbor and help the poor, the world would be a MUCH happier place. 

My feeling about organized religion is that its a system. Human beings needs structure and a system in order to make something full function...like a school for example, there is a building for school, rules, guidelines and specific ways of learning...otherwise ppl would be learning things all over the places and the lack of structure would bring out a lack of unity and understanding about subjects. The same thing with any other aspect of our lives like with the legal system. THe same goes for religion. There is a need to have a structured religion in order to keep beliefs unified and collectively understood. There is something special about a collective worship when two or more ppl get together to worship something... its profound. Now when ppl use organized religion for their own agenda..than that is when its wrong. Its not God who is wrong but the actions of the people. Personally I believe that it doesnt matter how many times you go to church or whether or not you fast for every holiday...but ur relationship with God is what will count. Just my two cents....but dont hate on organized religion..if u look closely into it..ull see it has its good points.

Who was the first person to look at a cow and say, "Hm i think ill squeeze those dangly things and drink whatever comes out."

As a child I went to Catholic church originally, followed by non-demoninational and even Baptist for a bit since all my friends were doing it.

I still believe in God, but don't feel terribly tied to any religion. I miss the rituals of the Catholic church but can't reconcile the "official" church positions with what I believe.

But no... leaving the church didn't have as much to do with coming out as growing up in a very very religious environment (outside the home anyway). The excess of hypocrisy I saw in the "I'm SO Christian" kids at school coupled with scandal after scandal of preachers stealing from their churches or announcing their infidelity to the congregation then running away with their younger mistress.

A lot of people do a lot of good works through their churches and I'm not talking about them, but a lot of it is just about appearances or money and in my mind God deserves better.

God, hmmm?

I define myself as an agnostic, that truly understands atheism, borders on deism, but in the end thinks... God! I just don't know.

Now on the topic of religion, WOW... do I have a lot to say! Raised muslim, and was muslim, the PERFECT friggin muslim girl, wore the clothing, read the material- I know my religion inside out! And how I tried to believe it, I tried so HARD!! Dealing with everything, my sexual orientation (REPRESSED)... I was one of those people that said... "Love that which God loves, hate that which God hates, and God hates gays" but this belief, the question of sexual orientation, well it consumed my thoughts, if anything could ever make me question my faith it was this issue. The scarier question then was why? Why was I obsessed with the gay issue? Yeah, I think I now know why...
Anyways all I pretty much want to say was, religion screwed me up, made me lose my voice, my MIND at some points, and for me- it was self-destructive. I'm not a fan of religion, and I will never put my kids through the psycholgical turmoil I went through (although I do respect those who believe in it, and use it to better themselves)

Above all, I believe in rational thinking, and using you reason to come to conclusions. I, unlike my parents/family, will never judge, or be angry with someone who disagrees with me, because their reasoning brought them to a different conclusion. Organized faith does not allow this tolerance!  

Get me?

I don't care if god(s) exist(s). I faith is in myself and everything around me. How everything has a purpose in the living world and when you die....you die. Sure you atoms and energy will be placed in other forms such as clouds, trees and butterflies still I see that there is no "god" a "god" force in a sense where it's energy.

Strong Atheist here.

I used to be a Catholic - I've been in Catholic schooling since I was five years old. I figured out when I was about 11-ish that Christianity was crap and from there, that monotheism was crap. It rather disturbed me that I, a pre-teen, could ask questions and voice criticisms that a religious adult could not answer in a logical manner or often not at all.

I dabbled in Eastern Religions for a short time, but never really believed them. I was just interested learning about that perspective.

A couple of years ago I renounced all belief in a God and became totally an atheist. I then found some atheology books, as I'm interested in philosophical study, and was amused to find that most of the arguments I'd come up with that led to my own atheism were there almost exactly.

So... yeah.

/ramble

_____

History: Raised Catholic, have fundie siblings, was Wiccan for many years, think Buddhism has a lot of stuff right (if you ignore the dogma). 

Ok, this much I'm sure of - there is no Santa Claus\God and if I pray for something tangible - like a bike - it's not going to magically fall from the skies onto the street in front of me.

But, I do not know how this (or any) universe got started and I do not know how life and consciousness began.  I do know that there seems to be a quantifiable difference between being alive and being dead, although there is some grey area even there, but I have no idea what happens after death.  My best guess is that nothing does - that specific consciousness winks out of existence and that's the end of it.  But I don't know that for sure.

My belief is that there is a natural explanation for all of it - the universe, the origin of life and what happens after death.  Can't prove that yet, so it's just a belief and I'm open to the possibility that I'm completely wrong.

And lastly, if I am wrong and there is some deity involved with the daily joys and woes of human existence, that thing needs to be caught and sentenced.  Anybody else tells you to kill your kids and we lock them up for life.

I'm also open about both. Being atheist has nothing to do, for me with being gay, it has everything to do with not believing in a supreme being or beings. I tried to believe in  god(s), but that school of thought never seemed to make sense. I tried to join churches for social reasons, but the whole not believing in god(s) always got in the way.

I despise the way some churches use their religion to discriminate against us. I hate when people assume that I and/or others are christian just because it happens to be the most common religion in the united states. I believe in a strong separation of church and state and  hate how religion and government are tied so closesly together in the USA. I have no problem with people who believe, as long as they don't try to shove it down my throat or legislate based on religion. I hate that religious discriminate against each other and against nonbelievers. I've heard a lot of people say they would never vote for a president (in the USA) who was atheist which I think is ridiculous.  I've heard people say that atheists are immoral because we don't follow the 10 commandments which I also think is just crazy. They never consider we don't need 10 outdated rules to know how to behave. If I was writing the 10 commandments there would be things like no child molestation, rape and murder, people can covet all they want for all I care.

I agree most with existentialism, which i discovered after reading The Stranger by Albert Camus my senior year in high school. I don't think there is a god, and I don't care if there is or isn't, and I don't think it matters (unless you want it to matter). I believe the individual creates their own meaning out of one's life and it is not imposed by a higher force or by society at large.

however, i don't think religion is all bad. people can use it for their own ends to hurt others, but the same can be said of science as well (hitler, nazis, 'scientific' evidence against jews/disabled/homosexuals...). still, some people do good things with religion (one person who comes to mind would be jesus). and some of the teachings of the bible and their rules aren't all bad, though some are outdated. I just don't believe anything can be divided up cleanly black/white, and just as many have stated they dislike having other people preach about their religion to them, I don't think anyone has the right to impose their beliefs (religious or no) on anyone else...

But a good book about Atheism is The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, if anyone's interested. Shiny cover. can't miss it on the shelves.

THEN AGAIN, if there really ,really had to be a God, I'd like it to be a God who thought it'd be amusing to create all the evidence of evolution and the fossil record and everything to pit humanity against one another in a bitter struggle whose purpose , in the end, was just to amuse a bored higher power with a twisted sense of humor.

People seriously need to lighten up.

omg, inbd

my coming out process took a long time,so no religion does not have an affect on that. I was bought up in a conservative strict irish catholic family. In my adolescents I would have the car ride to church, but I would skip out. Also I attended the saturday night vigil with the grands. There is no getting out of mass and skipping communion with the grands. It has been around 10 years since I attend mass. I went through the adolescent phases of athiesism, the agnostic , and now an non practicing catholic. Although I do try to incorperate Taoism...I do like Toaism,but I was baptised catholic. I will not crossover to other denominations of religion. My experience with sexual orientation is painful and hard to grasp. I use to be homopobic, then dressed dykish in highschool. I recalled mother taking me to a therapist and she put it to him to ask about my orientation. I was an adolesent and that ordeal was too much becouse I just did not know 100% what I was.I am out now and I have had all types of reactions, however I do not go to church or consider myself religoius which I get a " I'll pray for you or you need to be saved" I think my sexual orientation is more a problem with people who are christians. every one else doesn't care. My lack of religion same deal. some care less others try to covert me to nondenominational or christian order. I just say I am irish catholic and went to catholic school. so I have a free get out of mass card from christ himself?

to sum it all up I found the church to be oppressive for me , but I still have some of my faith intact....I belive in a soul. It does have to be taken care of ..as for my sexuality It has nothing with my fall out as a catholic. I think my parents divorice is the cause of that. I think divorice divides a family and causes the children to be less a particpant in thier parents religion. I wish politicaly the church would act on divorce and not reconize second marriages so easily. but what ever? life goes on.

I'm an atheist. Once upon a time I was agonostic, with something of a belief in God, but still a lack of religion. Now I have faith in neither.

I have also delved into the ideas of nihilism and existentialism, the latter striking the most of a chord with me - especially with the concept of us making our *own* meanings to life. Though I'm also entertained by a certain degree of moral nihilism, or darwinism in the aspect of 'survival of the fittest'.

My rejection of religions like Christianity is not entirely based off of my sexual orientation, though it probably helped spawn it - but it was a general collapse in the concept of human kindness and God and heaven and afterlife that caused me to think, "Hey, this is all bullshit."

Now, I don't mean to hate on religion. Because, in all truthfulness, though *I* reject it, I also believe that it is good for people. Because, in my belief, God was created to save humankind from the agony of thought, and the agony of the truth that nothing was actually out there, that there was no greater purpose or higher power, no real sins or no real virtues - it was all fabricated by man to control them, and they used 'God' to make it less blatant.

For a long time, I even followed so strongly to the belief that *nothing* exists that I went spiraling into depression because the revelation was so huge. However, instead of turning to God, whom I rejected to find such truths anyway, I turned to Descartes words of "Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum." Yet even that we can't be sure of.

I went to church pretty much my whole life, and considered myself a "Christian". I rarely read the Bible, and felt stupid when I prayed, so I didn't. I never felt a big closeness with God, or anything spectacular that everyone else kept talking about. I just believed what I did because everyone around me just told me to.

Eventually, I read the Bible for myself, and found myself disgusted at many of it's passages. I began to question the whole Genesis seven-day creation account, and many of the other claims it made. After awhile, I became an Agnostic, happy with the idea that there was a God, but not one confined by a simple book. I didn't want to let God go because I was afraid I'd never see my mother again, since she had died when I was ten. Finally, after much though and internal debate, I decided that I wouldn't live my life for a God, that I would live it for myself and for my loved ones instead. If there is a God, then whatever!

I'm don't hate religion or religious people though. Most of the people that I love are either very religious, or believe in God to some degree. The only time I get ugly is when other people push and shove their religion at me. My grandparents don't know I'm an atheist, mostly because they would consider it their fault, and forever live in guilt that they had raised me wrong, which is what I don't want.

I feel the term 'agnostic' pretty much covers my beliefs, though I must clarify what I mean by it. In modern times I feel it has come to be used by people who just shrug and say that they "don't know", whereas my own agnostic beliefs tend to run more into "we can't know". And, for me, it is pretty inclusive. I often think the same things about religion and science - that they incorrectly claim to hold the truth to things which are, by very nature, inherently unknowable.

I am sceptical about Creationist and Big Bang theories, and I don't need to worry about them. I am open to the possibility of either. Why not?!

though i cannot say for sure which category i belong to, i think i have swayed towards agnosticism. since the philippines is a predominantly catholic country, i was born and raised as one. i, however, have been a non-practicing catholic since i stepped into college and that was more than 10 years ago.

the reason for my change of heart :) had nothing to do with my sexuality. it would be nice to believe that there is a God -- because it gives people hope amidst all difficulties. but in many ways, i feel that it is just a tool used by a few to control the behavior of many, in fact, here in the philippines, it has become a political tool.

the main thing that triggered the change in me is the all too common statement by catholics in times of failure, in times to sorrow -- that "it is god's will". i feel that to ascribe to such a belief would be to limit man's otherwise limitless potentials, and that it is just an excuse. how do you reconcile that with god creating man in his own image and likeness and giving him free will?

albeit unconsciously, maybe i am just trying to justify that way i live my life, my sexuality and all that. but what is important is that we do good..besides, i am more concerned about the law of karma.. :)

I am an Absurdist, which can be difficult to explain. Basically, I don't know and it's not important that I know.

My Mom's side of the family is Catholic, and I was raised around Catholics but not to be a strict Catholic. The Catholic church traumatized my family...it's a long story. Most of them maintain the faith, but do not go to mass. As a child, I went to mass with my Grandmother if I wanted to. And I read her rather large Bible of my own choosing at a very early age without being taught what it all meant. I feel I got a much clearer understanding without all the bias of the established church.

As I grew up, I realized that my understanding of the text was very different from just about every organized Christian church. For me the emphasis was on what you do, how you act, not what you believe about God. To be "saved" by Jesus, you had to act as Jesus taught. Simply believing and saying sorry for being bad is not enough.

And as I learned about other religions, I felt it was not right of me to say they were wrong. I cannot say Atheism is wrong either. Because I'm just not egotistical or superior enough to say I know such things. The universe is too complex, too irrational and unreasonable for the human mind to make sense of. Humans are compelled to understand and use reason to do so. But to try to make sense of what makes no sense is Absurd.

Can all religions be true and not true simultaneously? It's Absurd. And it's not important. What's important to me is that I not piss my life away trying to make sense of it. Because I will not. Ever. And I'm okay with that.

If there is a God who pulls our strings, then it would mean that nothing I do matters. If there is not a God, then nothing I do matters as there will be no reward or punishment for what I do. So, if nothing I do matters, then all that matters is what I do. Make sense?

Put another way, if I try to answer the question of whether or not there is a God using reason, any answer means nothing I do matters. But if I simply disregard the question, then all that matters is what I do. Giving up trying to know if there is some grand meaning or no meaning allows me to create my own meaning in life. One that actually makes sense to my human mind.

And I've come to what I think is a reasonable conclusion. The meaning of life is to live and let others live as long as nature allows. Suffering should be a choice, not imposed. Some find meaning in suffering. Some find meaning in the pursuit of meaning. Some choose to simply live without meaning. And that is all fine as long as there is purpose. Yes, one can have purpose without meaning. If all you do is push a rock up a mountain, you can feel filled with purpose, which makes you want to live another day to push a rock up a mountain. 

But having unshakeable faith that there is some bigger meaning outside oneself really puts you at a handicap in believing your life matters...and if you don't believe your life matters, you're really not living...but merely existing until you die. 

A couple years after I came out to myself, I told a priest...curious about what he would say. To my surprise he said "God put you on this path for a reason, and you must follow it." Perhaps that's true, but if it is I can never know the reason. It's also possible that I'm gay because nature, the universe, or whatever has some use for some people being gay. Scientists try to sort all that out, and they have theories...and you can pick one. Things just sort of seem to exist until they're no longer needed, and then become extinct or evolve. And I don't know why. Natural selection, survival of the fittest, astreroids from space, natural disasters, God. I dunno.

I just know I'm alive, and while I'm alive I can do stuff. Having a purpose makes living easier...makes ya get up in the morning. I can do good stuff, or bad stuff. But I'm happier when I do good stuff. So, I think I ought to do good stuff. Even having compassion for people who do bad things feels better than being angry or apathetic. Wanting for things that aren't necessary for living feels bad, so I try not to.  When living feels bad, it's harder to do.

So, if the meaning of my life is to live...then obviously I should avoid things that make living more difficult when it's within my control to do so. And usually, it is in my control to make it better or worse. To give up such control to an unknowable thing that may or may not have control, or to believe there is no control to be had seems so...counter to living.