Retro Reviewing: "Heavenly Creatures"

That is what I got when I saw your intro, and believe me, in my world, thats a good thing.

I honestly don't know what I can say about this movie that you haven't already. What I gathered from it, because it is Peter Jackson, was that he was pointing out all these completely strange things about this true story of what happened. I mean the girls were mentally ill, but the fact that they may be gay was focused on instead of that. I really didn't see the movie as being equated to lesbians being crazed and I really don't think that is what Jackson was shooting for.

For the record I just want to say that the movie was very bizarre especially the clay figures which just creeped me out, but it has a lot to do with Jackson's touch. He also directed another film called "Dead Alive" which is supposed to be a horror flick with a weird comedic edge. Also "Bad Taste" which is about Aliens collecting humans like cattle for their own version of a fast food chain so you can see the Jackson has always made bizarre, yet entertaining choices with his directorial projects. He also did the Lord of the Rings movies which had a really dark overtone throughout so I think it is his vision of certain stories that really affect the project overall. I thought the movie was very well made and needed the fantasy aspect in it to show these girls thought processes and how they were so connected to each other. I think it was a smart move by both Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh who co-penned it. Phew, that was alot to write... anyway.

I only have two foreign movie suggestions. The first is sort of in the same vein as Heavenly Creatures but it depicts young adolescent lesbians in a positive light...somewhat...eh, it had a good ending...Anyway, the title of that movie is Show Me Love aka Fucking Amal directed by Lukas Moodysson and is a swedish film. The other is completely different. It is about a tattoo artist and a webcam girl and is from Taiwan directed by Zero Chou and it called Spider Lillies aka Ci qing. It is sort of like Heavenly Creatures because it is really weird too, but to the point where it doesn't make much sense.

By the way Denae made me laugh all the way through your reveiw...oh and I thought Heavenly Creatures was a good movie so I am with Rina but I am giving it a 4 because basically the subject matter was so very unpleasant.

Never met a pearl quite like you that could shimmer and rot at the same time through

So I think I’m going to get on my social justice soapbox for a moment.  LOL.  So as I expressed in the vlog I was bothered by the association of lesbian=mental illness and mental illness=killer (not to mention that lesbian=killer also). As a society I guess we tend to be obsessed with morbid stories and intrigued by the lives of killers etc (I am going to guess since most of us are not killers…LOL) which is why I can’t blame Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh for wanting to tell this story.

I think my main reason for really disliking this movie is because I just hate the reinforcement of negative stereotypes EVEN if the events were true to life.  I think this bothers me so much because often times in fictional shows-movies the negative representation overshadows the positive portrayals of lesbians and people within the mental health community.  So when I see a true story I’m like, ”GREAT lets dig these negative thoughts into the minds of anyone that doesn’t already make this association.”  The movie Monster bothered me for this reason too.  

It’s like, ”Are there lesbians who kill other people? SURE….but are they the majority of the people in our society? I should hope not…LOL.  The same goes for the mental health community.  Are there people with schizophrenia that kill others? SURE…..but are they the majority of the people in our society-NO.  Ya know what I mean? I feel like every other episode of Law & Order has a killer that is diagnosed with schizophrenia or the victim-perpetrator is gay.  

I also wanted to talk a bit about the use of language that many of us use on a daily basis (myself at times).  I find it interesting that many people find the word retarded offensive but do not think twice about using the word crazy.  Both words can be offensive to people that may have a developmental disability or individuals that are struggling with mental illness.   In the same way that many people in the gay community can be offended when someone says, ”that’s so gay.”

Again, I am FAR FROM perfect but I have been trying to try my best to recognize how I say things and how the people around me are affected.  We are NOT perfect people and language is not something that can be changed overnight.  It takes time to recognize when we say things and to replace them with other phrases.  It’s hard to even notice the ways in which things can be offensive until they are brought to our attention.  Sorry for my WICKED long entry I think I’ve just been thinking about this for a few days…LOL.

P.S. Watching the clay in action was pretty amazing (thanks to Rina and Danielle for piecing that together).  

Denae, I have to agree with what you are saying, and unfortunately this film does nothing to help the stereotypes of several groups of people i.e the gay community and also those with a mental illness.

However, that doesnt take away from how much I love this movie. I saw it round about the same age as Rina and I was blown away. Yes it was weird and disturbing and bizarre and all those other things, but I fully believe that was the intention. It was a slice into what Pauline especially, was thinking and feeling, and lets not forget that all of Pauline's voice overs were word for word out of her actual diaries, as was the clay figures and what she imagined them doing to the people who got in their way. 

I think that the movie itself really attempted to suggest that Juliet's parents and their behaviour towards her was a big contributing factor in her mental instability - sending her away for years at a time and not visiting her while she was sick, after all it was her that first 'saw' the fantasy world when she was arguably suffering some kind of breakdown due to hearing that her parents were going to England and leaving her.

I don't know whether or not they were gay, and as you all said, it doesn't matter. I agree that Peter Jackson was trying to show how ridiculous the notion of homosexuality being an illness was, but it was considered a mental ilness until fairly recently. An aside note.. They did enter a plea of insanity, but it was thrown out.

All in all I believe that Peter Jackson was saying that their environment and the people around them helped in some way to make them what they were. I could not understand the logic of wanting to kill Pauline's mother either, but lets face it, logic was certainly not an issue for them by that point. Even though it was Juliet's father who wanted to keep them apart, Pauline saw the Hume's as the perfect family, a family very different in class to her own, and one she so desperately wanted to be a part of. Therefore, to her, it was her nagging Mother who was stopping that from happening.

Yes, the end was disturbing, and abrupt, but that was the end for them. They were sentenced separately and one of the conditions of their release was that they never see each other again, so the one thing they thought would keep them together forever ended up being the very thing that would ensure their separation. Juliet is actually a well known writer now, apparently!

So, in conclusion, great performances by everyone involved.. Five out of Five (don't know whether I would actually use the term gay magics?!)

Rina, did you actually rate the film? Did I miss that at the end?

Great vlog as usual. Love it! Can't wait for When Night is Falling!  

Everyone - great comments.

Denae - I'm so guilty of all the things you mentioned. It's sad, really, and ignorant on my part, considering that I originally got my degree in psych. and wanted to be a mental health professional. Crazy and mentally ill are two very different terms in my mind - and I know I should be more careful about mixing those terms. Consider me informed and slapped upside the head (and rightfully so!)

And I totally get what your saying about the negative stereotyping - especially in 1994, when all lesbians had to watch was this and "Go Fish" - the horror!

With all that said, the movie has sort of grown on me in the last few days. I really love all the creepy/weird/fantastical things that occurred, although the first 20 minutes or so nearly bored me to sleep. Its a truly unique movie, even though I know it's so polarizing.

 Still, Rina, your Kate Winslet argument doesn't hold up. As Katie said... the bowl cut kind of puts a damper on that one.

I have to admit that I only made it about half way through this review.  Rina, you didn't need to apologize for loving this film.  It is one of my favorite movies of all time.  Aside from my obsession with Kate Winslett, what I love about this type of film is how easily I found myself lost in the world created by these two girls.  By the time the final act has been committed, my own sense of logic and morality had been lost and an act that could never be justified almost seemed like a reasonable plan.  This is what the best film do. 

I don't feel like every movie that features lesbians (and I'm convinced that that's exactly what they were) needs to be a positive representation.  That would get pretty boring.  Filmmaking is an artform that has no room for policing itself with political correctness (particularly in the indie world), and this is an amazing film. 

There is plenty of negative lesbian representation in film and television.  There is plenty of heterosexist and homophobic impluse beyond such representation.  However I don't agree that exists here.  What Jackson is able to do is relate with these two killers and ultimately get us to relate too.  He understands these two girls because he too is a firm believer in imagination. 

What we see in Heavenly Creatures are two young people that find connection with each other through their imagination. We then see familial pressure attempt to break the two apart.  Jackson makes his views clear on the issue of lesbianism when he makes fun of the psychiatrist (these scenes are played so that we look at the psychiatrist as a purveyor of quackery).  Later when the two girls make love (and having read the diaries that were turned into evidence it is pretty clear they had become lovers), it is shown as beautiful and the moment when the two exit the imaginary and move into the real.  Jackson feels this is the logical step between the two girls and sees nothing inherently wrong with it at all.  Indeed it is presented as utterly romantic (which is one of the reasons so many lesbians and bisexual women love it - it is a deeply romantic film).  What Jackson has done is established how powerful, emotionally and sexually, the bond is between the two.  So when the act of murder is committed, while we do not agree with it we are able to comprehend why.  This is why the most devastating part to many viewers is when we are told that one of the conditions of their release was to never see each other again.  In a movie in which a Mother is killed, this is the moment that gets to many viewers. 

I've never met a straight viewer who has gone these two killed because they were gay.  What I've spoken to are countless straight viewers who, while saying the girls were wrong in what they did (something I absolutely agree with - what they do is horrible) feel that the repressive times and therefore repressive families are what are under attack here.  I agree with those viewers.  I think Jackson sees their bond, emotionally, sexually, and imagination wise, as a wonderful thing and that the problem was that there was at that time in society some kind of need to destroy that.  As Jackson has said this is "a murder story about love, a murder story without villains." He has taken the two boogey women of New Zealand and presented a sympathetic view of why they went to where they did and a society's culpability in that.  

Agree with the person who said Show Me Love would be a great review and love your vlog.    

Ediana, I totally agree with you, you've really captured the message of the film with your comment. This is one of my favourite films too. Maybe it's to do with the proximity, but I really identified with the girls, and was caught up in the fantasy right along with them.

I think that what a lot of people are missing here is that this film is a true story. It's not the "based on a true story" bollocks we get all too much from third-rate thrillers, this film is extremely close to what actually happened. It's even filmed on the same path where the murder was committed (I remember walking down that path as a child, always looking over my shoulder). So this isn't 'negative representation', it's just what happened. In fact, I would say it was a positive representation, as it showed the humanity and love behind the murders. Also, I think that Denae is thinking about her 'mentally ill = killers' equation the wrong way. Sure, if the film were about mentally ill people, and Jackson invented a story that showed all mentally ill people as killers, that would be unfair. But the film is about a real murder, in which the murders were clearly not in a right frame of mine. (By the way, if we're diagnosing, I'd be more inclined to go for folie à deux than bipolar disorder.) So if anything, Jackson isn't representing the mentally ill as killers, he's representing some killers as mentally ill.

Personally, I don't think of the girls as lesbian. They had a very intense friendship, and probably did experiment sexually, but I don't think this is a coming out story at all. Paul and Juiliette aren't trying to figure out their own identities; they're losing them in a dependent and destructive relationship.

So I'm here at URI in Rhode Island, suppose to be studying for finals this week, and I'm watching Retro Reviewing for the first time and all of the movies you guys are reviewing instead.... I'm totally blaming any failing grades on RR haha

I'm not complaining though, your reviews provide wonderful insight and at times are really funny! Plus you are all super cute! Thanks for making these and making me laugh, Keep up the good work! :)

Like so many of those who have commented here, I first saw HC when I was about 14 or 15 and it completely and utterly captured my imagination and fascinated me. It is such a different movie, and is so incredibly evocative that it draws you right into the world of Borovnia and into Juliet and Pauline's mindset and reasoning. For me, even though their behaviour was quite unhealthy and what they ultimately did was utterly inexcusable and wrong, I couldn't help myself from rooting for them and their relationship. Personally, I view this movie as a Romantic Tragedy, on an almost Shakesperian level... Pauline and Juliet's obsession with each other and the power of their love blinds them and ironically, dooms their relationship to failure and destroys their future.

About whether they were gay or not... this is one of the most debated points about the movie, and there is no definitive answer as of yet. In the book 'Parker & Hulme' by lesbian writers Glauzima and Laurie (so far it is the only book on the case, which is a travesty), they were able to view some police documents on Pauline that the New Zealand police kept on Pauline during her parole, and they detail her association with known lesbians and her visits to lesbian bars and bookshops. She also apparantly had a number of female lovers after she was released from prison, and she reportedly even told one of her true identity. And lets not forget her ambivilence regarding boys... when she was questioned in court about having slept with 'Nicholas' she said something to the effect that it wasn't her cup of tea. So I am of the personal opinion that Pauline is a lesbian. 

About Juliet, I truly do not know... she is now a mormon, and seems to be a very reserved, sealed-off person, who lives on her own. She has never been married, which is quite unusual for a good-looking, heterosexual woman, but her past may have had a negative effect on her ability to have relationships. She vehemently denies being a lesbian, or that she and Pauline were ever lovers- but it is quite clear to scholars of the case that they did indeed have a romantic and sexual relationship. If she is truly gay, no doubt the villianisation of her and Pauline's supposed lesbianism at the time has had a huge affect on her personally, and maybe she has repressed and submerged her sexuality as it may hold great guilt/shame for her. Fascinating to speculate about, but we may never truly know.

... And Retro Review ladies, I absolutely LOVE your wonderful, dynamic, thought-provoking, intelligent reviews... keep it up! I would absolutely love it if you could get a chance to retro review 'Water Lilies' (or 'Naissance Des Pieuvres'), the French movie by lesbian director Céline Sciamma. I have found it to be an extremely subjective and polarizing movie... I for one am truly, madly and deeply in love with it, and I interpert the characters, especially Floriane and their motives in a layered, poignant way, while others who have seen it feel kinda 'meh' about it and seem to see the character of Floriane as a black-and-white user and Marie as a pouting, sulking stalker. The review that it got here on AE earlier this year also had very interesting, disparate reviews, opinions and readings of the movie. So yeah, I'd love to see what you ladies make of it. Adéle Haenel, the girl who plays Floriane is also delicious French crumpet! ;-)

One final thing, and my rant is over... if you didn't like HC, Denae- stay well away from 'Sister My Sister' or 'Les Blessures Assasines/Murderous Maids'! Both are two of my absolute fave movies, but blow HC out of the water in terms of depicting 'psycho-killer-lesbians'. They're both based on the same chilling true story of Christine and Léa Papin, two incestuous sisters who worked as maids in the same house in Le Mans, France. In 1933 they murdered their employer and her daughter in an brutal attack, the reasoning/cause of which is still a source of mystery and debate. It's a case which fascinates me much like HC and Pauline and Juliet, and another example of 'folie a deux'. In fact, the phrase 'folie a deux' was coined in France at the time of the Papin sisters trial by a psychologist who sought to explain the sisters bond.

Sorry about the length of this post, but your retro review got me all excited!

Hip To The Beat, Mommie-O!

I saw this movie first years ago.  I liked it then, and all the times that I've seen it since.  It was a gruesome story, and it could have been made with much less love and creativity--however, this was made by Peter Jackson.  Did anybody else see Bad Taste.  It's not a high budget looking film, but its creative and very funny. 

I think the elements of fantasy were a great juxtaposition to the reality of the situation.  Every time I see the murder scene, I cringe.  First the mood is breezy-- they're going out for a nice walk, Pauline is being nice to her mother for a change--

and then there's the first smack on the woman's head--then there's that horribly sound she makes that brings the mood back to present time.  The look on Kate Winslet makes says to me "is this actually the right thing to be doing?" and then Linsky, despite hearing the pain, seeing her mother holding her head in her hands, the look on her face that says that this whole time, Pauline was the bad one.  Juliet validated it because she was a kid who was allowed to live in a fantasy world since she came from money, and had parents who were compensating for their regular abandonmen of her.  Her fantasy world was her constant companion.  Pauline was a kid with a bad attitude who lived an ordinary life.  I noticed that Juliet's fantasies become more violent after Pauline is allowed to interact with them.

But again, they're just kids.  The Psychologist is brought it in because the parents want someone to blame other than themselves for the different behaviour of the children.  Specifically, Pauline is blamed for being a "Hoooomo-sexual," and it has nothing to do with the fact that teenage hormones make children a little crazy sometimes. 

Anyway, I still love this movie (not the soundtrack).  I give it a 4/5.

I saw this movie last year, and I have to say that I REALLY didn't like it. It had nothing to do with filming aspects or acting, because I have to admit that all of that was done well. If I were to rate just on that, I would give it a 4.75. But I can not get past the storyline and the claymation which was all really creepy. Even without the claymation it was creepy and disturbing and just too much. The most disturbing part was that it was all real. There was kinda this "Sister My Sister" vibe to it, which is also based on a real life murder case, although I did prefer Heavenly Creatures to it. Overall, I give the movie a 1.75.

And by the way, after I saw the movie, I immediately went to research the actual murder, unable to help myself because the movie definately does leave a impact (regardless of whether it was good or bad). Both Juliet and Pauline were seperated and placed under court order never to contact one other. Apparently both of them also are regretful of the murder and live fairy isolated lives. However, despite their current feelings of the situation, at the time they were completely consumed by the world that they created. Pauline's diaary entry of the murder was entitled, "The Day of the Happy Event." They were both undoubedly insane and suffering from some sort of mental illness, in which combination with their obsession for each other did lead to the murder. 

Anyways,  I thought it was interesting that you four debated about the sexuality aspect of the relationship. In an interview with a London magazine, Juliet stated that the relationship was obsessive, and that neither of them are lesbians. I don't think it matter what the gender was. I think it was more about obsession with each other and with the world they had created, which was displayed in the sex scene of the film. When they were having sex, they were thinking about the characters they had created not with each other. 

Here are a few suggestions

1.  Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter.  Ultra low budget, Canadian, caaaampy!  The story is that vampires are targetting lesbians and its up to the son of God to bring order back to the world again.  What's cool is that Jesus and Mary love them some lesbians, and while there is no sex, in the end the girl gets the girl.  One of my all time independant faves.

2.  Show me love.  It's a foreign language film.  I saw it years ago so I can't remember anything but that its highschool love, and I think it has a happy ending.

3.  The incredible true adventures of 2 girls in love.  Not a great piece, but I think I remember a decent sex scene.

4.  High Art.  Ally Sheedy + Radha Mitchell = :P

Hoping to see some more great reviews in the future.  You're recommendations and slams are very helpful thanks :D

I've been going back and forth whether to post or not.....I've read all the posts above and I can't offer any more insights other than my personal opinions after so many good posts. I reluctantly watched it, because I wanted to watch a movie and it's posted on YouTube...and it made me feel sick. Maybe that's precisely the effect it's trying to achieve. It's even more disturbing that it is a true story. I guess human beings are capable of such horrific acts. I could do without this movie alright....

Looking forward to the next one, ladies. 

great!! weird movie, unusual theme, hot actors and u manage to take everything u could out of it. A discussion could go on and on and on forever, cos this movie has a very delicate issue: was lesbianism the cause or consequence of their mental disturbance? well... who knows? and after killing someone...who cares? ur sexual orientation won't keep u from going to jail. and if they loved each other, they loved each other.

this was great indeed, but... where is the rating of the sex scene?? I missed it. I like to think of Katie as the expert in love-making scenes. I guess her movies will match her high standarts.

I've seen ur uploaded videos on youtube! denae stand-up show and the short movies u've made. they r all pretty great! some drama, some comedy, but well-made in general. so, congratulations to you all. I have to admit that my favorite one is The Next Stop (for obvious reasons). ;) keep it up, talented girls!

You know you have deticated viewers that like you, when... they practically write an essay just to tell you " yeah I didn't like it either".

btw I love this vlog just like everyone else, but I'm lazy so maybe i'll elaborate on my thought of the movie next time.

Peter Jackson is a New Zealander and the situation, on which the film is based, is one of the most famous in New Zealand history. So it stands to reason that he would be drawn to the story. That there is a lesbian 'angle' (not promoted by Jackson but explicit in the true-life accounts of the case) and that there is a murder is part-and-parcel of the truth - whether we like it or not.  Jackson's aim was to tell a true story creatively while not going beyond the bounds of documented history or imposing his own morality. He does that admirably (a lesson other filmmakers would do well to learn). That the film might not be greeted favourably by our community is not relevant to the film's overall success as a piece of cinema and a work of art. If we allow ourselves to judge the film based on our fears and prejudices then, at the end of the day, it judges us.

I'm also disappointed that no-one was able to see that, as regards the cause of any 'mental illness', the finger was pointed firmly towards the repressive society in which the girls lived. Lesbianism was never the cause (and it was never made out to be). Rather, it was the strictures of an alienating society which renders adults as strangers (for the young) and fosters a situation where friendships become obsessive because they're the only reality that seems worth connecting to.

I know that people keep saying that this was a true story and that Jackson was not trying to imply anything negative about lesbians or the mental health community etc and I totally hear what you are saying. He made a very nice movie (I agree with that). The point I am trying to make is that we all have choices about the types of movies we want to make (true or not).

I personally (personally being the key word...LOL) believe that a movie that came out during a time when there was not a lot of other mainstream lesbian movies MAY have reinforced negative views of lesbians by lesbians themselves OR by people outside of the lesbian community (in addition to the mental health community).  This movie DID not make me hate myself or anything like that...LOL I just think if I were an outsider looking in without any other exposure to lesbians I might say,"Ohhh....nice so this is how lesbians live?"

People see things in numerous ways and we all experience movies at a variety of levels.  Some people are drawn to the color red, some are drawn to blue.  Does it make it wrong that I like blue? No....we just experience them differently.  We would also interpret and describe those colors differently I'm sure.  Instead of saying,"Wow...what a fool of you to not see things this way." I think this forum is a wonderful place,"how about looking at it THIS way?" 

Sharing is caring.....LOL.

I think that this review and this film has encouraged some amazing posts, and a true debate which has been great to read. This is what a subjective review is all about.

I agree with the post concerning Sister My Sister with Jodhi May (Florence in Tipping the Velvet) and Julie Walters. It truely is a disturbing yet fascinating piece, and again a true story. I'm sure that it would make for an equally thought provoking review.

Anyway, The L Word is back in six weeks time, so have you all given any more thought to lending the Retro Reviewing style to that? Come on, what with Bette's sex spasms and a murder mystery to solve, how can you resist..??!!

Hey can you guys do a Retro Review of "When Night is Falling" with Pascale Bussières and Rachel Crawford?

 Thanks for reading

A viewer sent me this link to deleted scenes from Heavenly Creatures.

I'm so glad these scenes were deleted because it would have been just too much.

Although, these clips do show a more disturbed side of both girls, I'm glad they were taken out. 

http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu-h3uyRtbI