Cherry Bomb: "The Butch Mystique: Part 1"

As long as you are yourself, and aren't putting on a front or a persona to please or influence or attract others attention...which some people do because they truley aren't certain or comfortable with themselves and feel the need to "BE" someone, instead of just being yourself.

We are simply ourselves and butch is just a term used to describe a more tom boy-ish girl, as an adjective (a word used to describe)not a label...I see nothing wrong with it.

Knowledge is Power.  Believe in yourself.

The audience question was totaly the same as mine.. high school senior in closet.... I can't wait to go to University and 'represent'. Ha ha

 And the whole butch talk was interesting!    

Pretty disheartening to watch this.

How about for Part 2 you invite some folks who proudly identify as butch, rather than this guest who doesn't believe in 'labels' such as butch, but then proceeds to say that she favors terms like 'boi'. WTF?

We ALL use labels everyday, both consciously and unconsciously. Queer, dyke, feminist, bi, what have you. Why imply that butches are out of touch for being butch? There is a long and proud history to this identity with a lot of struggle in there too, and like all identities it evolves over time and is different in different communities. Personally, butch is what I am. It isn't a fashion I try on. 

There are so many butches out there from every class, age, race, region and educational background. We are a pretty diverse (and lovely) group with politics and notions of our identity that run a vast range. 

Expectations were hopeful, but this added very little to any interesting discourse on what appears to be a misunderstood identity.

I can totally relate to Tylers stories. I found myself having many " yeah exactly" moments about what she said.

with jill bennett's words...I'm reclaiming the word dyke. I'm a dyke, but neither butch or femme.

I think this topic is more complicated. There are people who identify as neither, like me, and then there are people to whom being butch means something. And like Gloria was trying to point out, butch tends to be a "third" gender. (god knows how many genders really are out there...)

Yet it's funny and sad at the same time what people think and say when they just judge the outside. Some people, even lesbians, have said to me (jokingly) that it's quite clear who's the man in my relationship. My answer's always: "Yeah, it's clear, it's me." Confused looks.

I'm supposed to be the femme, but I'm just femmy. My girlfriend's supposed to be the butch, guess what, she's just tomboyish, but really, she's a feminine, girly lady.  She just dresses like that cause women's clothes look stupid on her. And she gets the restroom thing, too, but she's not avoiding the situation. On a good day, she'd hold her breasts up with her hands and say "Those are real". (I'm such a proud girlfriend)

There's more to this than saying that labels are old-fashioned. There's everything, people who label themselves and people who don't. But the whole butch-femme-issue is really complicated, and really interesting, and I don't think it's over. We just don't go to a lesbian bar, at least not all of us, knowing we're  either one and looking for our opposite. On the other hand, I've "grown up" in a generation of lesbians who thought it was bad taste if you fell for a more masculine woman. Good thing I found out at circa age 20 I was attracted to both masculine/androgynous/feminine women. ;)

I feel like identifed by what Tyler says..

I sometimes get mistaked as a boy, and my mum once after seeing a buthc told me"Hey, she's just like you! and she has a boyfriend ;)"

btw, Tyler's sooo cute *heart* I wonder if she uses facebook =)

No offense to Tyler, since she doesn't identify this way, but if I saw her on the street, I'd probably label her as butch, and a very cute one at that.

As for myself, I'd probably prefer to be referred to as 'femme' rather than girly. I like the word femme.  It sure beats "Who's the straight girl?" 

loved this vid...but is it just me or does tyler look a bit like taylor lautner?still cute tho;)

"You're homo."

"It takes one to know one!" - Me

"But I'm gay..."

"Exactly." - Me

Coming up for me, it was very offensive and I simply don't use it and don't really understand how it became the thing Gloria considered a general term for lesbians.  NO!  But just my opinion.  As for the Butch / Femme identifier.  I side with Dalila that it must be a cultural thing because it is used in the african american community ALL THE TIME.  As a matter of fact all of the "labels" are.  Androg, tomboy, butch, femme etc.

 Doesn't necessarily mean its a good thing.  It just happens to be true. 

Love butch women - 

hate that we have to label ourselves -

wish i would have gotten  the same advise they gave the high school senior that wrote them _ i wouldnt have most of the problems i do now - 

note to you all if you did not hear them well enough ----------

DONT BE IN A RUSH

another note Note_ i  live in the midwest _ and seriously - sometimes we do have to dress a little boyish to let other people know _ its just something that i feel i have to do - maybe not so much inside of a gay bar - but out in public i want to let people to see that maybe i'm a little different and maybe im gay -

this brings up something else amazing _ flannel is in now, completely in!

F*cking love flannel!

Love butch women - 

hate that we have to label ourselves -

wish i would have gotten  the same advise they gave the high school senior that wrote them _ i wouldnt have most of the problems i do now - 

note to you all if you did not hear them well enough ----------

DONT BE IN A RUSH

another note Note_ i  live in the midwest _ and seriously - sometimes we do have to dress a little boyish to let other people know _ its just something that i feel i have to do - maybe not so much inside of a gay bar - but out in public i want to let people to see that maybe i'm a little different and maybe im gay -

this brings up something else amazing _ flannel is in now, completely in!

F*cking love flannel!

I got short hair and people mistake me as a guy fairly often. Bathrooms are interesting, because they all look at me and they are confused as to why I am in the same bathroom as them. Honestly who waits in line for the bathroom unless they are a woman, because there is always a line up for the ladies bathroom, but not for the guys. In the line, especially from the back, they can't tell my gender, therefore they think I'm a guy and tell me that the guys line is the other one.  

During my academic orientation for university, I gave my name to someone and she fully heard my name, but she assumed I was a guy and when she introduced me to someone else, she called me a gentleman and made up a name that was similar to the name she heard because of my appearance.

I used to have long hair, but I am more comfortable with short hair and it suits me better. The way I talk, walk, dress and my mannerisms are still the same, but I changed one characteristic (my hair) and it fully changed my appearance. For other people, the typical image for a female is one with long hair, so therefore with the long hair they could tell I was female, but with the short hair they assume I am a guy. 

I don't usually post but...

This topic was one I could not pass up.  I'm from a town where I don't know anyone (blame the computer).  Went to college and came out a month in.  Lucky for me the other 5 women in the school I never saw.  So yeh.  You could safely call it an all guys school with the occasional females.  6-7 days a week, 8+ hours a day, the whole year long.  No social life.  aka I know jack shit about community.  I got me, thats it.

I have been looked at weirdly in bathrooms since I was 10.  Looks I can semi deal with, the pointing out I'm in the wrong bathroom I can deal with too.  At age 11 a woman pounded on my stall door until my mother came in and told the woman to leave her daughter alone.  I have been chased out of a mall bathroom by a woman around 14.  I was trapped in the locker rooms in school because they didn't believe I was female, called me It.  I have been spit at, had rocks and paint thrown at me.  This is not an easy life to live.  I can go a full day w/o using a bathroom at this point.  I have grown my hair out due to the pain I was sick of taking and the lack of nice short hair cuts.  Am I living how I want to, not really.  But its way better than it was.

The kicker is that I wear guys clothing most of the time, had short hair.  Even with longer hair I get called sir.  (although sir is better than it)  I could be catogorized into some category by my looks.  I have been called Androg and butch. But honestly my friends from college teased because my appearence is not who I am at all.  I would agree that looks is not the personality.

When I imed my mom, yes I used Yahoo Instant messenger to tell my mom I was gay :p.  (I might be a nerd if... ) anyhoo, after I imed my mom and let the info seep into their mind I had a chat with my folks.  It was couple years later and they said they always knew.  Strange how this shit happens heh.

I'm sorry to reduce an important topic to something superficial, but the reason Tyler gets hit on a lot is not because she looks like a dyke, it's because she is frikkin' hot! I'm not ordinarily attracted to boi-ish girls, but she has the loveliest face and smile. Tyler, call me:)

As for parents knowing, when I came out my mom said: "Thank god, at last! I've known that for years, I've just been waiting for you to realise it too." Jeez, it would have saved five years of angst and secrets if she'd done the bookshop thing Tyler's mom did! My dad also said he'd figured I was gay, so it was all pretty painless. But I think it helped that I fit the stereotype, even aas a little kid. Ball sports, karate, skateboards, etc. There was nothing shocking about my coming out:)

I also agree though that looks and gender identity are not the same thing. I don't look as butch now as I used to, but when I had really short hair people would treat me like a guy! You know, talking trash about girls, calling me dude, all in a friendly way and never nastily, but they were always shocked when I said ,"Oh, those shoes are great!" or something traditionally feminine. I was like, hey, just because I don't look like an extra on Gossip Girl doesn't mean I want to be a boy.

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Callie: You don't even like sandwiches!

Arizona: But I like the girl who has the sandwiches.

I can relate to a lot Tyler is telling - especially the restrooms. I, too, avoid them if possible. Sometimes, when I just can't hold it, I do go (I sometimes sneak into the men's to avoid long ass lines) and I have found a really good come back to any woman who starts ranting about me being in the "wrong" restroom:

"Wow. It's good to know you can read, too."

That shuts them up. Everytime :)

On clothes and dressing: I wear whatever I find sensible and suits me. And I think everybody should. Regardless of what fashion magazines say :p

_ _ _ _ _

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." (Dr. Seuss)

im regards to moms knowing their kids are gay; my mom says she knew i was gay when i was in kindergarden. idk how she knew, but she says she always had a feeling. as i was coming out in high school, she couldnt have been more supportive.

unfortunately the clip isint working for me but from what i can gather...

there is nothing wrong with using labels on yourself. NOTHING.

we are women here right? (well most of us) we are all females. do you get offended when someone says you're a female? No. you should be offended if they judge you by the stereotype of a female. you know- having to stay in the kitchen and make babies. (not in that order) those are just streotypes of a woman.

I am black. The word black is a label. So? Its still a label. Its still a noun. the only time i WILL be offended is if someone says 'you're black- so you like chicken?/have a big afro?'

I am nigerian. Thats a noun. Thats a label.

Everyday we use lables on ourselfves. You are a mother, a child, a boss,  a sister, a girlfriend. Why are we only hooked on the few words like butch, femme, andro? They are not the only words in the world that we sue describe ourselves and if they ARE, then we honestly need to broaden our personality a bit.

We should stop being so scared if we want to call ourselves butch or andro or dyke or femme. We dont get worried if people say yu have blonde hair, or you are swedish or you are a woman. They are nouns used to describe parts of ourselves afterall. How come we dont say 'yeah im blonde but i dont wish to call myself this becasue truly, im not a bimbo' Erm, who said just becasue you are blonde, you think eevryone is going to assume you are a bimbo or you're going to act a certain way? its a noun. Nothing to be paranoid over.

Who said just becaue you're a butch/femme, people are going to think you have to act a certan way? If thats what they think, then theat is them, but you yourself should that you dont act a cetain way just because you are a buthc/femme. the words themselves are not limiting. its when people expect you to act a certain way that is limiting. otherwise, the words arent a scary dangerous thing.

Tyler was talking about which island??.. And yeah she does look butch.. well more androgynous... by the way she was "describing" herself...

I don't like very much the word dyke... I mean... I dunno... some people use it despectively... it all depends. It's like calling gay men faggots... it sounds horrible.

"It is easier to disintegrate an atom than human stupidity"-A. Einstein

Well...guess what, I'm 32. Which I wouldn't say is old, but I've been out for 15 years. The younger generation just wants to not be the previous generation. And uhmm...sure that's fine, but you're really just changing the words.

And and as for fashion like not wearing flannel....fashion changes for straight people to, femme or butch, fashion changes.

I get it though, older is not cool. There's no way I'm calling myself boyish. I'm butch. Though probably not the stereotype that formed in your head. Tomboy is what I was when I was 0-17 years old.

Gender expression is tied to activity. Sure, I can tell myself I only wear flannel because I've lived in rural places...cold rural places. (But really, I freaking hate sweaters.) And I wear boots or sneakers...whichever fits the activity.

But this is just a cover. The activities I am interested in are butch, and the clothes you wear to do them are butch. If I did not feel comfortable dressing this way, would I be interested in these activities?

Looking at it another way, I do avoid doing things or applying for jobs in which I would be expected to dress femme...or girly if you prefer. If I had to choose between a job as a waitress where I had to wear a skirt uniform or shoveling horseshit in my jeans, I would shovel horseshit...so I can wear jeans.

How accepting it is where you live and how accepting your parents are does have an effect. My Mom suspected I was gay when I was a kid, and she thought she could change that by forcing gender roles on me and convincing me to where gender appropriate clothes. I grew up in a small town in New Hampshire.  And it was just like, I had to put my foot down and say I am gay and this is my gender expression.

I didn't have the luxury of being gray about it because people would just start chipping away at me. Like why don't you wear just a little bit of lipstick, just a little bit of eyeshadow...maybe some slightly more feminine sneakers. Now add a purse and grow your hair a little longer. A constant chipping away. I used the butch label to explain to people, to tell people in the most succint way possible that they needed to back off. 

I'm sure I look less butch than I did was a teenager, because my family accepts it now and I no longer have to make a statement. But my past experiences are part of who I am, and that experience is being butch.

I would have no problem if someone asked me if I wanted to be called sir. Usually they don't ask, they just call me sir then say sorry if they realize I'm female. There's nothing wrong with being transsexual, gender variant or gender queer. Being asked what pronoun I prefer would be progress in my book. Then I'd tell them I identify as female and prefer female pronouns. If they didn't respect that, then there'd be a problem.

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Tweet: @GrrrlRomeo

I think you´re right GrrrlRomeo. It depends very much on where one grows up and how. Some might have to want to make a more obvious statement on their sexuality at the beginning and then when they become older they might dress down a bit. But there are also women who just like to be butch (or whatever you wanna call it) and it is a big part of how they see themselves and want others to see and treat them. 

In Germany I find there to be quite a big part of the lesbian community to dress that way, or maybe they are just the most obvious ones, and it is mostly not a necessarity to present their sexual orientation but just their way of wanting to be and live. 

Labels ... I don´t mind, everybody should use or not use for themselves whatever they want. I don´t get the big fuss about it but maybe that is also a regional thing. I haven´t heard a lot of labels in my surroundings. 

Never stop exploring. 

I'm sorry, but this episode was just frustrating. It only happens very rarely, but sometimes I get the impression that these ladies live too much in their LA bubbles. I think the term "butch" is still incredibly relevant - but perhaps not in their circles. I have found that the term is still used in New England. 

What about those groups of people who live between the straight and GLBT worlds? I'm a lesbian with lesbian friends, but we don't have a strong presence in the gay community. Don't misunderstand - I'm proud of my sexuality and I'm not in the closet. I just don't go to gay clubs or events in my area. Within this group I've found the term Butch used quite a bit, perhaps as a signal to other GLBTs? A "we're family" sort of term. Straight people I know just don't know the term - so when it's used it's a very obvious GLBT claimed word.

And Tyler - don't go on a show saying a term is obsolete just because you don't use it.

I DID find Gloria saying she didn't realize "Dyke" was often viewed as more masculine very interesting! In the younger circles I've run into, "dyke" WAS almost interchangeable with butch (although not exactly).

I'm anxious for part II.  

I've always thought they need a 'goldstar' butch on the panel.  It's my only frustration with this show ... I think there's an important perspective missing. 

There is often much talk about past boyfriends and "when I was in a relationship with men" and "when I became a lesbian/finally came out" etc ... but the experience of many lesbians is not reflected here, either visually or experience wise (granted, I don't know the whole life history of the panel).

I think a butch lesbian would confront the occasional 'dodgy' comment that is allowed to slide by ... such as when someone said "If you haven't had sex with a man, how do you know"? (paraphrasing).  That episode needed a goldstar butch opinion.

It would also help if the person was not so immersed in LA culture, that they don't realise how the rest of the world works. 

I don't know why a bartender (in a lesbian bar) would hear the term "butch" or herself referred to as butch? ... it's too obvious ... You're probably more likely to hear it, in a non-gay workplace - like an office.

As for the word "Dyke" -  I'm fine with it.  The main reason I'm fine with it, is the people who use it as an insult, can't even spell it correctly!

tyler is gorgeous. wow.

i guess my thing is similar to what people have been saying... i dont feel that butch and femme is irrelevant at all. i somehow take it less offensively than i would the term girly or boyish...

either way it gets a little old to me, the whole hyper-sensitivity to what you are labeled as or described as... someday we will have to use completely abstract words to describe everyone and no one will know who we are talking about. its a tad ridiculous imo.

I would be curious as to what folks think about the 'boi' label. When I was coming out it was not a term that was in use, but by the late-90s I was hearing it in bars and different events and finally meeting young(ish) dykes who were embracing this identity, rather than 'butch' or perhaps using them interchangably. 

I have to admit I have never been fond of the term, perhaps because when I think boi I think 'boy'. And boy is pre-pubescent, so the label has a Peter Pan-like vibe to it, of not wanting to really be mature or adult or to take responsibility for one's actions or really focus away from oneself and your own personal needs. Basically it has the whiff of narcissism that you would expect from your average 12-year old.

I know this is way too harsh, but it is always what my mind turns to when I hear someone identify as 'boi'. The dark ugly part of me thinks that when you grow up maybe you'll be a proud and adult butch, or a lovely trans guy. But boi? I don't get why you would want to use that term. What positive attributes does this label mean to project that I'm missing?

Butch or femme, Gay or straight we all feel the need to label others and perhaps ourselves.  Gay men seem to have far more labels for the "looks" they go for than lesbians.

What's clear, certainly in London is that over the past 10 years the younger generation of Lesbian, aspires to look more like the "femme" women of the L word.  Where maybe 10+ years ago butch lesbians looked more like truck drivers and salesmen, todays "butch" seems to follow the Shane look. 

Something that was mentioned, was that in the past or rural areas, women dressed and looked butch to be able to indentify other lesbians and be identified by other lesbians in their community.  The Gay and Lesbian community (in the western world) is so "out" that perhaps there is no longer that need to be so obvious.  Who knows!

However (end of essay and rant) I think "butch" is very relevent today.  Like everything else on this planet, labels evolve.  From a "tom boy" to a "dyke" to "butch" to a "stud" to  a "more masculine woman", to "boyish", whatever!  However we describe it, whatever terminology we use, it means the same thing.  Just evolved.

There are butches in LA?!  <:O 

She might have the power to stop heartbeats using only her smile? That should be looked into. I'd be pretty ok with it if she would be on the show all the time.

Maybe just pretend I said something intelligent and relevant.