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Home » Blogs » Sarah Warn's blog » "Stargate Universe" responds to controversy over lesbian body swapping episode

"Stargate Universe" responds to controversy over lesbian body swapping episode

by
Sarah Warn

After reading my comments in this week's BLWE about Stargate Universe's body-swapping episode that results in Ming-Na's lesbian character Camile having sex with a man, a spokesperson for the show contacted me to clarify a few things.

But first, here's the statement Stargate Universe creators Brad Wright and Robert Cooper posted on the Gateworld forum this morning, after being barraged with complaints via email and Twitter from LGBT and disability rights groups responding to criticism of the episode on a handful of blogs and websites (including AfterEllen.com):

Recently, a casting breakdown was released to agents for a upcoming character in our television show, Stargate Universe. The character, Doctor Eleanor Perry, is a brilliant scientist at the top of her field, who also happens to be a quadriplegic. As part of a science fiction conceit that is core to our series, Perry's consciousness is temporarily exchanged with one our series main characters, Camile Wray, who is a lesbian. In the course of the story, Perry has the experience of being able bodied for the first time since she was a child. At the same time, Wray, temporarily encumbered by Perry's physical disability, experiences the unconditional love of her life partner.

The language of the breakdown was insensitive and inaccurate, and we sincerely apologize to those who may have been offended. The audition pages that have been under scrutiny were from an early draft and released out of context. It is our desire and intention to portray both characters with dignity and respect, while remaining mindful of the ethical issues we're raising.

What I take away from this is 1) whoever wrote the casting sides screwed up, especially when they described Eleanor as only able to "finally experience intimacy" by having sex; 2) in addition to seeing Eleanor in Camile's body, we'll see Camile interacting with her partner Sharon as a paraplegic in Eleanor's body; 3) Brad and Cooper were smart to apologize and do so right away (the story only broke out in the last day or two); and 4) "Camile" is actually spelled with one "l" not two, despite IMDb and the Syfy channel frequently using two l's (I also confirmed with the show's spokesperson).

But this statement doesn't really address the problem of showing a lesbian having sex with a man, especially in the context of lesbians almost never having sex with women on TV, so I focused my conversation with the MGM spokesperson on that.

According to the spokesperson for the show, Camile's relationship with her partner Sharon (Reiko Aylesworth) is her anchor throughout the stressful events she encounters, and although Sharon will only be seen occasionally, their relationship is referenced throughout the series and clearly established as the only truly stable and healthy relationship on the series.

He also confirmed that we will see "physical intimacy between Ming-Na and her partner equal to the intimacy heterosexual characters on the show." That's good news, considering that has only happened a few times on broadcast or basic cable TV (the last time was the two seconds you saw between Callie and Erica on Grey's). It also means we'll actually see two women physically involved before we see this episode (since Camile visits her partner on Earth in episode 7, and the body-swapping incident happens around episode 16 or 17).

As for the Eleanor/Camile body swapping episode specifically, he told me sex between bodies (i.e. body swapping) is introduced early in the series, and is an ongoing moral dilemma on the show with serious moral consequences, and this event is no different.

Bottom line? They're still showing a lesbian having sex with a man, but this is just one of many incidents of people swapping bodies to have sex with other people; there will be negative repercussions to this; and at least they're also showing — or more accurately, suggesting (since primetime television never really shows characters having sex) — two women having sex.

Unfortunately it still plays into the whole lesbians-sleeping-with-men pattern on TV, and we'll have to wait and see exactly how that plays out, since the devil is truly in the details when it comes to dialogue and editing. And I'm not sure how this is going to avoid reinforcing negative and inaccurate stereotypes about long-suffering disabled people who aren't really whole, etc., although that isn't really my area of expertise.

But if what they've told me is true — that the show isn't employing the same double-standard around physical affection between same-sex and heterosexual couples that we see everywhere else on TV, and that this is just one of many body-swapping incidents so it feels organic to the series, and has negative consequences — I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on the lesbian visibility and see how it turns out. At least for now.

  • Sarah Warn's blog
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    • Submitted by
    Sarah Warn
    on August 14, 2009 - 5:47pm.
    TAGS :: 
    MeL's picture

    Thanks for the follow-up

    Submitted by
    MeL (38 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 6:20pm.

    I'm glad that the show's creators reacted to the criticism right away and that it probably isn't as bad (if bad at all) as it seemed at first. I love the Stargate franchise, especially because they have always included great, strong female characters, and I'm looking forward to Stargate Universe A LOT!

    **************************

    Enchanting Women | Bezaubernde Frauen - MeL's Blog

    Luna's picture

    Why cant they just cut the

    Submitted by
    Luna (354 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 6:28pm.

    Why cant they just cut the scene and reshoot the episode? 

    No! Episode 17 is still pretty fair away from airing so lets keep the fight going till they wise up and drop the whole episode!!

     

     

    -I speak in random thoughts

    shelby's picture

    Haven't seen but think I disagree

    Submitted by
    shelby (148 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 6:30pm.

    The breakdown was insensitive for sure but I would have to disagree with the contention that if the body is what is having the sex with the man that the lesbian is too.  

    This is Science Fiction.

    When Xena fans saw Bruce Campbell play 'Xena' in the famous "The Quest" episode not a single Xena fan saw the kiss between Gabrielle and Autolycus as being between those two characters.  They saw it as a kiss between Xena and Gabrielle.

    Would it have been nice not to wait until MANY seasons later to see Lawless and O'Conner touch lips as Xena and Gabrielle - sure - but it was the impact for the characters not the actors inbodying the roles.

    Sci-Fi fans are smart enough to get this swap as being just that - a body swap.  And the Stargate Universe has a giant depth of fans who are also smart enough to get it.

    It's not like they are saying that Ming-Na's character wakes up one day and decides let's try boys on for size.

    I completely understand, and am completely frustrated by the lack of representation in TV but also don't begrudge this show for exploring the universe they created in this manner.

    There is a big difference between character and actor.

    My two cents 

    Luna's picture

    Your point contradicts

    Submitted by
    Luna (354 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 7:05pm.

    Your point contradicts itself.

    -I speak in random thoughts

    thegirlnamedpete's picture

    How?

    Submitted by
    thegirlnamedpete (26 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 7:53pm.

    I think what Shelby was saying is that people can look at the characters in context of the show and not just see the actors as their individual characters. In the Stargate example, Ming-na won't be playing the lesbian character when she has sex with a man, she'll be playing a heterosexual woman in another woman's body... Just like the Xena episode, when another person played the character, but it was still the same character. It's not about the face playing the character, but about the character in the context of the story.

    www.genderspark.org GenderSpark- teaching tolerance by teaching Gender

    shelby's picture

    thanks...

    Submitted by
    shelby (148 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 8:16pm.

    You got it - that is exactly it.

     

    Megan Rose Gedris's picture

    I was going to bring up this

    Submitted by
    Megan Rose Gedris (105 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 9:17pm.

    I was going to bring up this very point.

    It's a case of one actress playing two characters, one lesbian, one straight. When doing scenes with men, she won't be Camile, she'll be Eleanor. Camile will be elsewhere, still being a lesbian.

    trypr's picture

    I generally agree

    Submitted by
    trypr (180 posts)
    on August 15, 2009 - 6:37am.

    It's a classic fantasy setup, which is complicated by issues surrounding representation of course.

    The point of sci-fi/fantasy is to examine things like this, that challenge issues of human identity and interaction; how it might be altered through technology/supernatural means. It's a way of holding up a mirror and asking ourselves "so is this still true?".

    If it's a running theme of the show and the issue of "bodyswapping" and consent receives consistant treatment between characters, then that may help: this seems intended to press the issue further. Inevitably some characters are going to come out looking worse than others, but I think it's a good sign the creators responded so quickly. Still, I admit to some skepticism whether they can pull this off without fault: the only things with potential for worse writing, are time travel and clones.

    It's interesting to note that, used this way, the series infers that personality and identity is divorced from the physical structure of the brain: the implications of this are rarely explored when the fictional device is used.

    I think it's fairly clear that the individual we are is not simply the body we inhabit, but there's a tendancy to gloss over or ignore the scientific evidence for the ways in which the two are connected: perhaps because souls are a neat and comfortable concept for many, even a belief, that captures the essence of self identity.

    Anyhow, in a very reductionist sense, our bodies are a very personal piece of property. In a hypothetical and literal bodyswap, I would treat a body as if it remained another person's property, unless there was clear and explicit consent involved.

    scalfin's picture

    This is actually a kind of

    Submitted by
    scalfin (1 post)
    on October 24, 2009 - 11:03pm.
    This is actually a kind of interesting concept. If, as the science seems to indicate, sexuality is biological, you'd expect it to stick with the body, so that a lesbian transported to a straight woman's body would suddenly find herself attracted to men. I've actually been toying with this idea in a comic I've been contemplating writing where the characters are themed after the seven sins. Envy, of course, has the power of transformation, and will vary in sexual preferances depening on if she's a straight man, straight woman, gay man, lesbian, or cthuhlu.
    monica_ca's picture

    Thanks for the follow up

    Submitted by
    monica_ca (684 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 6:42pm.
    Sounds like things aren't as horrible as we originally thought.
    NZNeep's picture

    I have read way more

    Submitted by
    NZNeep (24 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 7:28pm.
    I have read way more spoilers than I would have liked, but after the first spoiler I'm glad I have some context. I'm glad the powers that be at Bridge Studios are taking it seriously.
    Halle B's picture

    Others are also upset by the Eleanor character

    Submitted by
    Halle B (55 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 7:49pm.

    Namely, the disability community:

    http://media-dis-n-dat.blogspot.com/2009/08/disability-discrimination-in-casting.html

    fyi.

    vegas576's picture

    Thanks, Halle

    Submitted by
    vegas576 (6 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 9:27pm.
    While I agree with the points made in Sarah Warn's original article and this one, as a physically disabled lesbian what jumped out at me are the assumptions in the article that you linked to. I can't say it any better, so I'll just quote it--"that a person's body is 'useless' unless fully abled, for example, that a disability is something that should be fixed, that people with disabilities do not have sex lives, and that a person with a disability is less than fully realized as a human being." I love AfterEllen.com in large part because of how thoroughly social issues are integrated with entertainment, but I'd really be grateful for more disability awareness. 
    Sarah Warn's picture

    Disability awareness

    Submitted by
    Sarah Warn (4180 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 9:55pm.
    I didn't ignore the problems with how this portrays disabled people — in my original BLWE commentary about it, I specifically quoted a reader's comment that mentioned the problems with how it portrayed disability, and deliberately linked to the LiveJournal post because the comments there addressed the disability issue thoroughly, and in this post I pointed out that many concerned with disability rights weren't happy with this episode, and wrote that even though I was willing to give the writers the benefit of the doubt on the lesbian visibility issue given this new information:
    Quote:
    I'm not sure how this is going to avoid reinforcing negative and inaccurate stereotypes about long-suffering disabled people who aren't really whole, etc., although that isn't really my area of expertise.
    I do think there should be more awareness around disability rights issues, but since that's not an area I'm knowledgeable enough in to address properly, I can only point out what I see as problematic, and then link to/quote from others who know more about it.
    vegas576's picture

    Thank you

    Submitted by
    vegas576 (6 posts)
    on August 15, 2009 - 8:14am.
    Thank you so much for responding, Sarah. And I sincerely apologize for missing your original reference, which was perfect--as is linking to/quoting  people  who are disabled.  In terms of disability awareness in general, an editorial policy about avoiding various versions of "That's so lame" would be a big help.  Thanks again.:-)
    Sarah Warn's picture

    Good point

    Submitted by
    Sarah Warn (4180 posts)
    on August 15, 2009 - 5:43pm.

    I hadn't thought of "That's so lame" as being a negative reference to disabled people, since that's definitely not what I mean when I say it. But I supposed that's like people who say "That's so gay" arguing that they aren't slamming gay people. :) I'll avoid using "that's so lame" (or similar statements) in the future — thanks for educating me on that!

    vegas576's picture

    Thanks again!

    Submitted by
    vegas576 (6 posts)
    on August 16, 2009 - 8:45am.
    Yep, that's about it :)

    If you're interested, there's a short article and some good comments here and a kind of neat exchange between Emi Koyama and Alison Bechdel here.

    I'm not even sure how many years it's been that I've been enjoying AfterEllen.com, so this exchange means a lot to me. Thank you very much. And, again, I apologize for complaining about something when you had in fact been incredibly cool from the outset.
    Homa Sapiens's picture

    My body is me.

    Submitted by
    Homa Sapiens (4 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 8:03pm.

    I would have to disagree with the contention that if the body is what is having the sex with the man that the lesbian is too. 

    I dunno... if I were monogamous and a lesbian, and I came back to my body to find my crotch all slippery and a little bit sore, I think my reaction would be on the short side of murderous. i would feel violated and unclean.

    Seriously.

    shelby's picture

    A different debate...

    Submitted by
    shelby (148 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 8:26pm.

    I would say that is a valid point but a different conversation.  That could bring up a very interesting discussion of violation and which party or parties were privy to the act of violating the vessel or shell.

    Personally it's the inside of me that makes me a lesbian.  My emotional state/brain - whatever you want to call it not the shell I walk around in.

    However if this science fiction convention of 'soul swapping' could take place what might people's reactions be to the knowledge that while 'AWAY' any number of things that the soul might not agree with/want to do might have taken place from sleeping with someone/a gender they don't find attractive to something as mundane as eating meat if they only ate veggies normally.

    It really is a very thoughtful and interesting sci-fi topic of conversation. 

    Homa Sapiens's picture

    if i were vegetarian

    Submitted by
    Homa Sapiens (4 posts)
    on August 17, 2009 - 3:45pm.

    and my body were fed meat-- i do not think that's mundane, either.It could be for health reasons, or religious. When I come back to my body, I'm the one with the stomachache, or the one who must go to be purified.

    If i borrow your car, I don't take it off-road for thrillrides. If you borrow a CD you don't use it for a Frisbee. We don't misuse other peoples property. 

     

    I agree, it's a very interesting sfi-fi premise. I sincerely hope that it gets treated as such in this show, because if not it will simply become one more insult.

     

     

    les-ryder's picture

    Disturbing

    Submitted by
    les-ryder (1 post)
    on August 15, 2009 - 7:12am.

    I totally agree with you on this one.  Not sure about the Ming-na character, but I am a gold star, and I sure would feel violated and angry when I got my body back.  I am curious as to how they have Ming-na's character deal with it when she gets back to her body.  Something about it just seems so disturbing to me. 

    Perhaps if this is a common theme on the show, then a lesbian could invade the body of a heterosexual woman and whoops. . .a straight woman has lesbian sex!  I'm just saying make it fair if it has to be done. I would definitely love to see a gay man invade a straight man's body, but I am going to seriously doubt that will ever happen.

    Blueline's picture

    I agree

    Submitted by
    Blueline (7 posts)
    on August 16, 2009 - 11:00am.
    It just seems so wrong. It almost seems like they are giving her a roofies and date raping her. I hope they change the script. I love the Stargate franchise (I just finished netflixing all 10 seasons of SG-1), but something like this might ruin it for me.
    JollyRoger's picture

    Pregnancy...

    Submitted by
    JollyRoger (8 posts)
    on August 17, 2009 - 4:08pm.

    And just imagine if the whole sorry mess resulted in pregnancy..! Urgh.

    On a related note, I dimly recall that G.L. Dartt explored the body-swapping theme at some point in her "Just Between" series (Janeway/Seven fanfic), 'cept it was Janeway switching bodies with B'Elanna. Think the good captain ended up having to deal with raging Klingon hormons as well as, let's just say, some unfamiliar aches and pains once they switched back. It's an interesting way of making issues of identity transparent and explicit, and scifi obviously offers a good framework for the requisite suspension of disbelief. In fact, the whole concept of the Borg (involving, as it does, the removal of large chunks of a person's natural body and their replacement with mechanical parts) also raises these issues.

    P.S.:  The JB Series can be found here if anyone's interested: http://tr.im/JBStories 

    Mickey's picture

    mmm...

    Submitted by
    Mickey (7 posts)
    on October 6, 2009 - 2:13pm.

    You know, Ive always watched Sci-fi with my father and enjoyed it but I never put the sort of though into as I see you and other here doing. You are quite right sci-fi is a great tool for looking at issues of identity. Whats interesting is that Ive recently started a PhD program in Women Studies and we had a reading that had to deal to with "cyborg identities". I read the theory but didnt really put much thought about it til now...your comments coupled with the reading ive been doing has made things click in a whole new way...thanks for that!!!

    And regarding the fanfic...I wonder what Janeways emotional response would be had she body swapped with a full Klingon. I think that the half-raced issue is salient here as well. B'Elanna was half human if I recall correctly.

    Rosenoire's picture

    I'll believe it when I see it.

    Submitted by
    Rosenoire (4 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 8:52pm.

    Unfortunately, given the Gateverse production team's track record on--well, pretty much everything--I'm not very optimistic.

    This is the show that started with an SG-1 episode where an alien played by a very tall, buff, black actor, comes through the Stargate to kidnap a blonde white woman. The two Stargate: Atlantis regulars played by actors of color have joked about comparing scripts to see which of them gets the fewest lines in a given episode. ("I've got three!" "Yeah, well, I've got two!"). With the exception of one character in season one of SGA (who they got rid of by making him a crazy junkie), Ming-Na is going to be the first actor of color regular in the franchise who's not playing an alien.

    We've had episodes where date rape drugs ("Irresistable") and sexual harrassment ("Trio") were played for laughs; as far as I know, Cooper and Wright still don't understand why female fans were upset by an episode where a character who drugged six women to get them to marry him was considered comic relief. One of the female regulars in SGA actually asked the showrunner why there were no women on the production staff. Her character was killed off in season 3 because according to Cooper, "she just wasn't working out".

    We did get a lesbian character in SGA's fifth season--of course, we didn't know she was a lesbian until she died in her second episode and Joe Mallozzi mentioned it on his blog. So given their history, I don't expect this to be handled with anything approching sensitivity and thoughtfulness. If it is, it would be a new and surprising development from the Gateverse crew.

    trekie88's picture

    There was sexual harrassment

    Submitted by
    trekie88 (30 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 9:56pm.
    There was sexual harrassment in 'Trio'? Maybe I need to go back and rewatch it. I don't remember that.
    NZNeep's picture

    Maybe she's referring to the

    Submitted by
    NZNeep (24 posts)
    on August 15, 2009 - 12:28am.
    Maybe she's referring to the part where McKay suggests Carter lift her top to earn the cooperation of the local boys?
    Rosenoire's picture

    Yes.

    Submitted by
    Rosenoire (4 posts)
    on August 15, 2009 - 1:02am.
    That's what I was referring to. You can argue that it's Sam and Rodney and she knew he was joking, but the fact that Gero thought that a bit where a guy suggests to his female boss that she show her tits was hilarious says a lot, and none of it good.
    trekie88's picture

    I had forgotten about that.

    Submitted by
    trekie88 (30 posts)
    on August 15, 2009 - 8:13am.

    I had forgotten about that. I guess you are right.

    Rosenoire's picture

    Yes.

    Submitted by
    Rosenoire (4 posts)
    on August 15, 2009 - 1:02am.
    That's what I was referring to. You can argue that it's Sam and Rodney and she knew he was joking, but the fact that Gero thought that a bit where a guy suggests to his female boss that she show her tits was hilarious says a lot, and none of it good.
    alnaimi's picture

    I would like to be female

    Submitted by
    alnaimi (2 posts)
    on August 19, 2009 - 1:57am.
    I would like to be female Saddaqpma me because I love the female and female and respected the sentiments of many of their youth and the arrogance of the men I am with respect and assist the female in all areas, including not-for-Allchukr with greetings and respect sereenwhed@gmail.com
    svissmiss's picture

    their response today was pretty good

    Submitted by
    svissmiss (115 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 10:50pm.

    I agree that I want to see their hand before I believe this Stargate will be any less mysoginistic, racist, or phobic than its predecessors. However, I think their response today to the criticisms of the minority communities involved in this potential travesty was respectful and, as of now, looks like reasonably ethical leadership.

    On a side note, the fact that body-swapping is a regular theme is pretty off-putting to me. I may give the show a shot, but the potential for bad writing is HUGE.

    Rosenoire's picture

    I'm still underwhelmed

    Submitted by
    Rosenoire (4 posts)
    on August 15, 2009 - 1:07am.

    To me, it sounds like "Oh shit--people are mad at us, and it's not just the fans who aren't in our target demographic!" I also note that the response was initially posted to Gateworld, where most posters generally support anything the Gateverse creators do.

    Someone described it SGU as sounding like "BSG meets Dollhouse".  That sounds about right. There may be television writers who could pull that combination off, but these guys aren't them.

    Tabaqui's picture

    Thank you for the

    Submitted by
    Tabaqui (2 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 8:59pm.

    Thank you for the follow-up.  I'm still *very* wary of what's going on over there, and really wonder if they're just trying to smooth things over.  I hope not.  I hope they start to *get it*.  But the examples cited above, and the problems that were rife on SG-1 and SGA concerning characters of color and L/G characters lead me to believe otherwise.

    *sigh*

    theJadedRogue's picture

    I'm a huge follower of

    Submitted by
    theJadedRogue (37 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 9:04pm.

    I'm a huge follower of Sci-Fi as a whole.  Would we be saying the same thing if it were a straight male character, embodied by a gay man, now having sex with another man?  This is science fiction and this is what writers in sci-fi do.  I've written a piece where my lesbian character is in a different time continum, meets her soulmate (who in her normal line of time is a woman) and is a man in the different time line.  They hook up - does that make me a bad writer?  Or someone who thought outside the box?  If writers have to stop every moment and think of every single thing that might offend, then nothing worth while will ever come out of writing or tv shows.  I think this was blown WAY out of porportion, sorry.... 

     

    tJR

    www.aliceschart.com (the facebook and myspace of fanfiction and more!)

    svissmiss's picture

    Um, yes.

    Submitted by
    svissmiss (115 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 11:07pm.
    Would we be saying the same thing if it were a straight male character, embodied by a gay man, now having sex with another man?

     

    Um, yes. I can't even begin to tell you how many straight men's heads would explode at the thought of someone using their body to f* a man. I imagine some might feel that they were raped. Some might even seek out their possessor to kill or harm them.

    I can't imagine very many people of any persuasion who would not feel violated if someone else possessed their body and used it to have sex with someone they would never otherwise consent to. The disturbing question being raised is, "Does my body belong to me?" However, the intriguing question being raised is, "Is my body truly necessary to my identity? / How much is my body a part of my identity?"

    Your story does not quite compare because your character was in control of her own body and actions when she slept with her male soulmate. That made it her choice.

    Also, I feel there is a difference between considering who you as a writer might offend and committing yourself to being unprejudiced, inclusive, and even-handed. Someone will always be offended. That's not the point. If you treat minority characters fairly, neither favorably nor disfavorably compared to nonminority characters, then you can hold your head high no matter what anyone says.

    alnaimi's picture

    I would like to be female

    Submitted by
    alnaimi (2 posts)
    on August 19, 2009 - 1:58am.
    I would like to be female Saddaqpma me because I love the female and female and respected the sentiments of many of their youth and the arrogance of the men I am with respect and assist the female in all areas, including not-for-Allchukr with greetings and respect sereenwhed@gmail.com
    WolfenM's picture

    Is it rape or not?

    Submitted by
    WolfenM (1 post)
    on August 14, 2009 - 10:31pm.

    The fact that Camile is a lesbian having sex isn't really my problem (well, not the biggest one, anyway) -- my (biggest) problem with the story's not really addressed here. My question is, does Camile willingly give consent for Eleanor to use her body in that manner? They said there's negative consequences, so I'm *guessing* the answer is no (although the negative consequences could instead mean Camile gets pregant or something). The next question is, does the guy Eleanor sleeps with know that it's not really Camile? If he doesn't, then Eleanor is violating *him*, even if she has Camile's blessing. Conversely, if he knows and Camile does *not*, he is *definitely* raping Camile -- will he be suitably punished (ie imprisioned, as a rapist ought to be)? I'm betting no, if he's a major character. While I sympathise with Eleanor, and can see an argument for her getting wrapped up in the moment and figuring it's her body at the time/it's her one chance, she would still be violating Camile if she does it without Camile's consent, and so she ought suffer legal ramifications as well.

    Of course, it's possible that Eleanor doesn't think she *can* be returned to her body at that point, and her lover could think so as well, in which case it would be forgivable from a storytelling standpoint. But then again, no matter what the circumstances, the writers seem to be saying that sexual orientation isn't biological -- or else that Eleanor has some amazing mind-over-matter skills to get a lesbian's body to respond to a man, ey? Or else that the mind-swapping's a bit more than just consciousness!

     *EDIT* I feel I should add that it would be just as wrong for Camile to have sex with someone while in Eleanor's body (well, if she could) without Eleanor's consent, and that her partner would be just as wrong as the man if she went along with it knowingly.

    trekie88's picture

    I'm glad they responded so

    Submitted by
    trekie88 (30 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 9:47pm.

    I'm glad they responded so quickly to this story. I've always been a huge fan of stargate (especialy sg1) and I'm looking forward to another series. I have to admit I got a little worried when I heard about this storyline. But the explanation from Brad Wrigt and Robbert Cooper sounds like they are actualy making an effort with Ming-Na's character. After all these years of fandom it's going to take alot more than leaked spoilers for me to abandon this franchise. (Especialy as long as Amanda Tapping keeps coming back for guest spots and movies)

    BAS's picture

    I don't think this is on the same level as other situations

    Submitted by
    BAS (553 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 10:40pm.

    I realize that it's the whole "lesbians have sex with men" phenomenon and the fact that many shows do it and not specifically a problem with this show, but I don't think this is on the same level as shows that have shown their lesbian characters having sex with men for whatever reason (to see if they are really gay, to help out a friend, whatever - yes, it happens, and way too often).

    But I have to agree with other posters that it doesn't seem like exactly the same thing because it ISN'T the lesbian character having sex with a man. I do agree that the issue of consent and such is a problem, but not a specifically gay problem - the issue of consent would still be there if she had body-swapped with another lesbian who had sex with a woman while in her body without consent.

    Slightly OT - I suppose summer shows somehow don't count, but I just watched the season (series?) finale of Mental and the lesbian, though never getting to kiss or have sex with a woman onscreen, at least didn't have sex with a man either. 

    svissmiss's picture

    this cracked me up

    Submitted by
    svissmiss (115 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 11:10pm.
    The TV lesbian didn't have sex with a man? Now that's progress! LOL :)
    Homa Sapiens's picture

    it's specifically a lesbian

    Submitted by
    Homa Sapiens (4 posts)
    on August 17, 2009 - 3:49pm.

    it's specifically a lesbian problem in this case, because the only lesbian in the series is the one it happens to.

     

    It could have been a straight women who made the swap. But nooooo....

    tracer123's picture

    Hmmmm....

    Submitted by
    tracer123 (16 posts)
    on August 14, 2009 - 11:33pm.

    Why are you surprised?

    The depiction of 'strong female characters' on any American T.V show or film, is often one who still has to be 'rescued' by a man, or men. Writers are often male, they write from a male perspective and for men, they don't write for women.

     

    cat_77's picture

    Sy-Fy Fayl

    Submitted by
    cat_77 (1 post)
    on August 15, 2009 - 2:56am.

    Personally, since I first read about this, the song "I Spent My Last $10.00 (On Birth Control and Beer)" has been playing through my head.  My partner and I have now decided that, should this episode air the way it is planned, we will be making a fanvid to that song.

    Seriously did not expect this level of fayl from Sy-Fy, and yes, I have watched some of their made for tv movies.

    Jill's picture

    hmm

    Submitted by
    Jill (35 posts)
    on August 15, 2009 - 3:05am.

    Hopefully this will also teach them to either have someone else write their releases or at least have them proof read by someone who has a clue. . . .

    Jill

    lamp's picture

    I think the 'mind/soul'

    Submitted by
    lamp (37 posts)
    on August 15, 2009 - 4:23am.

    I think the 'mind/soul' swapping is a trick to give certain audience members what they want, someone mentioned Xena and Gabrielle, yes we knew Gabrielle was kissing Xena - not the man whose body she was in, that was a way to give the lesbian community something they wanted to see but in a safe way that didn't alienate men and it protected the show from conservative TV execs.

    With Camile, I'm guessing that many male viewers will simply imagine that it is Camile - body and mind - who is sleeping with a man, what's worse is that this is probably, in my opinion, the purpose of the storyline, to give male viewers that opportunity.

    The issue of identity in relation to mind and body is very interesting, if your mind is swapped with someone else does 'you' = mind in a different body, or, the same body with a different mind?  If 'mind' is just another term for a physical brain which can recall a collection of memories and allows us to express a personality, then, if new memories and a new personality are introduced, in place of the old, does 'you' = same body + new information in your brain? 

    HOWEVER, Wright and Cooper could explore this issue without it involving what is, quite frankly, rape.  If there is even a hint of ambiguity as to whether consent can be given, the moral course of action would be to not proceed.  It shouldn't take the presentation of a recurring moral dilemma and nearly a whole season to figure that out.

    I suspect the end to which Wright and Cooper are working towards is titillation - not a philosophical debate about consent in relation to identity.  If they wanted to be thought provoking; why cloud the issue with a (disturbing!) ratings ploy? 

    gooby's picture

    Thank you for the followup, Sarah!

    Submitted by
    gooby (391 posts)
    on August 15, 2009 - 4:48am.

    I really appreciate you being on top of this upcoming show and storyline. I've been a huge fan of Stargate since SG-1 and I've watched all the seasons and loved Atlantis as well, so I'm really looking forward to this new show.

    It's been my understanding that the writers and creators of the show are really fans of sci-fi and love telling good stories and the fact that there's been a lack of LGBT characters on the shows is not because they've intentionally steered away from them, it' just that, it's just something that's never come up for them. But I'm really glad that they're aware of it now and are doing something about it and from these statements, I feel that they are sensitive to the issue and truly want to "make it right".

    I've seen the long trailer for Stargate Universe and you know, I cannot wait to see this show! I have faith in the Stargate producers and writers. They've been able to create two wonderful shows that I've enjoyed a lot so I'll definitely give them a real chance with this one before judging. 

    e.i.cats's picture

    It's science fiction

    Submitted by
    e.i.cats (5 posts)
    on August 15, 2009 - 6:59am.
    "Fiction" being the word.  Is this the only imaginary way that the writers collective minds can come up with?  How creative, or not.
    Hana's picture

    I'm really having trouble

    Submitted by
    Hana (40 posts)
    on August 15, 2009 - 7:25am.

    I'm really having trouble understanding how can anybody who has ever seen one science fiction or fantasy series actually see this situation as a lesbian sleeping with a man. I'll not repeat what has already been said, but I'll just cosign Shelby's first post from this thread.

    Now, the issue of violation stands, and I truly hope it is not glossed over but explored. I also really, really hope that the confrontation about that are "the consequences" that are refer to, and that we are not headed towards another baby (yes, I'm a jaded Otalia fan).

    shelby's picture

    Jaded too

    Submitted by
    shelby (148 posts)
    on August 15, 2009 - 12:04pm.

    But thanks for the reinforcement of my arguement.

    As we know in most genre's babies kill tv shows I would think the situation will not result in a pregnant lesbian story but do hope that the fallout from this event has impact on the character relationships with one another. 

    This is essentially involving the leader of their squad so unless Ming-Na's character gives the okay I can't see it being without later tension.

    Now if he spends the entire series pining for the lesbian he can't have because he is too dumb to realize (unlike the other character) that she is actually 'not herself' then that could be another tired Sci-Fi convention.

     

     

     

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