Let me sort of quote a couple of things : "There are other ways they could have gotten rid of her that would have been more elegant." Killing Sandy on E.R was bad, because it is a lesbian cliché on TV that lesbians die and/or go crazy. Killing off Dana was Ilene Chaiken "disrespecting the fanbase".

And yet, the killing off of Tara "will not be included" because it was useful ? Well, I get that Sarah (and probably a lot of other people around here, myself included) loved BtVS, but for the sake of coherence, I don't know if this choice was the best one... I'm not trying to start a huge debate (God knows it's been debated to death, and no one's budging), I'm just saying.

Still, it is your choice, and regardless of that, it was a great segment, as usual.

 Great Vlog Sarah and Lori----

Especially about how being a lesbian on a straight show is about as treacherous as being an African-American actor on a horror movie----LOOK OUT because something is going to kill you, quick!  With few exceptions, lesbians and other minorities are added for some quick color, not for long term content.   

Also--- thought it was a good point about how all lesbians are portrayed as sperm hunters (maybe this is how the straight world justifies our purpose on this earth?....Like, if we are not here to satisfy men or make babies, what IS the point of us being here?)  Honey, I have never hunted sperm in my life, and most of my friends haven't either.

Suggestion to prime time TV: maybe an episode called "Spermicide"----where they kill 2 dykes with 1 stone by having a couple of lesbians stumble on to some bad sperm just as the writers have no clue what to do with the plotline…  You know, easy in, easy out…

Mari SanGiovanni

Author of:  Greetings From Jamaica, Wish You Were Queer... 

www.GreetingsFromJamaica.com 

i don't really like to comment but alex going crazy on the oc made me soooo mad!

How can something that started so well have ended like that! so many of my straight friends watched it, it was great, they defintely started to change their attitudes towards same sex relationships but it took abit of a u turn when alex went crazy! why did FOX have to undo thier good work!

ok i've had my rant!  Great segment as always, thanks!

Here's the thing, I've never cared for the Dana character so I didn't care if she lived or died. But that being said, my beef with Ilene is the reason she chose for killing her off the show. Breast cancer, imho, was not a good choice. As you two pointed out, she could have made her point just as effectively with Dana surviving that illness.

You also mentioned being annoyed with lesbian shows and/or movies because they always seem obligated to impart some moral lessons on us, that's true; but I'd point out that it's almost always the female writers who feel that urge, so perhaps it's a woman's thing :) For instance, the most virulent critics I've heard about 'Brokeback Mountain' are from women (gay & straight) and that includes on this site, so my opinion is their sensibilities were hurt because no matter how in love both guys were with each other, and no matter how dangerous it would have been for them to be open about it, they were married with children and technically just having an affair.

Other than that, great show as usual.

One question (if you've already answered it, sorry), why do you edit the vlogs to be so short? Sometimes, one of you start a comment and it's not completed because it's clearly been cut out and I wonder why?

What about one of the first worst lesbian story lines LA Law! The only thing I am going to say about that show is it fell apart and got cancelled.

Don't forget Degrassi, Paige and Alex. WTF

As for BTVS, the only way to make Willow go off the deep end is to kill Tara. I didn't like it but we have to accept it. Remember that show has written some of the best lesbian characters.

I can really only comment on The L Word and ER because those are the only two I watch(ed) from the list.  Well, I did see some Queer as Folk episodes but I did not care for the show, nor the lesbian characters on it.

Anyway, I agree completely on both ER and The L Word.  I said the exact same things about ER - Sandy dying and then the, oh so entertaining, obligatory custody battle.  One thing about the storyline though -- ER has a very loyal fanbase and, while we get tired of these storylines, it may have been the first time much of straight America was introduced to such a situation.

As for Dana dying -- Worst lesbian TV moment by far.  How sad that it comes from a show written for and by lesbians, huh?  That makes it so much worse in my book.  I never was a huge Dana fan and honestly I was sick to death of the Alice/Dana/Lara storyline, but killing Dana off was so over-the-top.  She was probably the most well-loved character on the show that so many coming out/in the closet lesbians could relate to.

_________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKu_QA8Bn9o

Marshnood, about BtVS, really let's not, I beg you. I respectfully disagree with you, and I could find a million things to reply to "prove you wrong", and so could you, to "prove me wrong", and so on -- in short, we could discuss it until the cows came home and then beat up the cows, and it wouldn't change a thing.

All this to say that yes, "is it because I'm a lesbian" is one of the funniest lines ever, and it never gets old. I like to yell it at my PS2 everytime I screw up, personally...

Serena on law and order the worst thing I have ever seen as far sending off and outing a character.

Alex going nuts on the o.c. made me think of all the lesbian story lines on law and order.

sandy getting killed off on e.r. was predictable and wrong.

queer as folk was actually one of my favorite shows but the way they treated the lesbian storyline was as if it was an after thought.

As for the Lword it makes me cringed to watch after they killed off Dana...the rest of the show after that was Alice going nuts and making jenny the center of the universe as we know it and then adding max....all great examples on how to kill a show that had lots of potential

First off I love the rants!!!  I agree completely with killing off Dana on the L Word being pathetic, although I have to admit I was so close to the end of watching at that point that I frankly just didn't care any more.  It just didn't surprise me that the writers were going to kill her off.  I figure any set of writers that can invent the Jenny character and the man-lesbian.....whatever that was.....of course they were going to kill her.

I also agree with the rant of the Lindsey character on QAF.  I was a QAF fan....but not for the lesbians as they had horrible writing for them.  Whenever they showed the lesbians I would usually roll my eyes to back of my head and try to suffer through the next two minutes.

As for the straight shows that attempt to stick a lesbian character in the mix like a potted plant and don't know how to get it right I guess I cut them a bit more slack....but when the gay specific shows like the L Word or QAF can't get it right then I don't just get disappointed I get down right indignent.  Ok I get that QAF was completely and totally about the men and they really did a good job developing the male characters.....but its not like they really needed to develop very much of a storyline for the lesbians afterall we only had 15 minutes per season.....hell the writers could suffer through a damn cup of coffee with Sarah and Lori and get a whole season arc and I bet they would even buy their own coffee just to finally see something done right.

I was pissed for weeks after they killed off Dana.They should have let Dana fight it. She was strong enough to fight. I mean she was Dana.

Now that Erin isn't the show any more it let Jennifer and Leisha shine even brighter. They both became bigger favorites in my book last season. BUT I WANT ERIN BACK!!! I'll take her anyway I can get her, just please have her come back.

I would say that it was in fact a badly written death, and not as organic to the story as the ones you mentioned (Jenny Calendar, Joyce), but this is a matter of personal taste, and I'm aware of it. But your point that Willow went on to appear in what was the first lesbian sex scene on network TV (correct me if I'm wrong, AE experts) is absolutely valid.

I have to say that I disagree about Weaver's character. There were two other important moments. When she came out to her adoptive mother and when Pratt found out his (cousin? brother?) was gay and his interactions with her while he was dealing w/his homophobia. I loved it when he said, "I have friends who are gay.", and Weaver said, "Yeah, and some of my best friends are black."

However, I agree with your critique of killing off her partner Sandy and the ensuing custody battle, more so because it is a tired story line than anything else. Other than that, though, I think she was a rather realistic portrayal.

My two cents about Tara (as a huge fan of BTVS)--I hated that she got killed off because I really loved Tara (and enjoyed watching Tara Benson every week *sigh*). But, her death was really the only event that would've caused Willow to "fall off the wagon" without killing off a central character such as Buffy or Xander, which would've been a v. bad idea w/another season to go. In addition, if Tara had been there she (most likely) would've been able to prevent Willow's "relapse" in the first place. That, or Willow would've hurt Tara, which would've been worse. I don't think Tara's death had anything to do with being lesbian at all.

____________________________________

these hips are mighty hips.

these hips are magic hips.

i have known them

to put a spell on a man and

spin him like a top.

---Lucille Clifton, Homage to My Hips

Also, the other disastrous lesbian plotline that I have been annoyed about recently was Alex (different one) leaving on Degrassi.  Terrible, terrible send off.  I really hope Deanna is coming back for a few episodes so they can rectify that mess.

What is it with shows and their send offs of lesbian characters?  Particularly ones named Alex.

omg, alex was the first person/storyline that came to my mind! her act at the end , coming to the bonfire with her gangsta friends? that was a bad idea... and i liked her so much from the very beginning...

as for dana... sarah, you say you see two sides of the story for tara, but you cannot see the other one for dana? maybe it's because i didn't care for dana that much as i care for, omg, shane, but her death marked a new era for the show. i think after that each and every character changed. alice became more open to the real thing, shane started grasping the whole long-term relationship idea... it was a crazy and bold move, maybe hated by 90% of the fanbase, not by me (and some other fans). i kind of miss her, but she was still much better as a closeted character with her funny comments so people would not recognize her.

finally, one more thing: i love how you put some secret messages on your bookshelves... some time ago it was new joss' comics book about faith, now it's stephen colbert... nice! keep up the good work & bring adidas back, lori :-P

 oh, one more horrible moment: s3 of south of nowhere, episode 1 in the middle: spencer and ashley start kissing and when ashley mentions everything is fine, spencer suddenly pulls away and pufff, the magic is gone... (well, one of the best moments is spencer in, or rathen out of the coat...)

yeah agreed that Alex (OC) senerio was just dumb

just cause lesbians break up doesn't mean we lose our composier

& the Dana storyline fr The L Word I just thought WTF & diden'teven

finish watching that season THANX AGAIN LADIES U ROCK!!

Loved the Dana rant. Just recently rewatched season 3 for the first time. No fun at all. (Ok, maybe the memory of the recap with the mention of Dana being trapped in the waterfall made me smile a bit *s*).

I'm glad you excluded BtVS. I changed my mind regarding it a few times over the last years. First, I hated what they did to Tara, but then I tried to see the point and it makes a lot of sense. Plus, it's not totally cliche because there was Kennedy (whether you like her or not).

Finally, I think the Thomas/Helen storyline on BGs deserves mentioning too...

I realized that some of you may not know LA Law since it aired in the 80's. So I want to give you the shortest version of what happened from memory.

Both Amanda Donohue and Michele Greene's characters kissed. The next thing Amanda Character is straight and whats worse she convinced Michele's charactor that she is straight "It was just a kiss".

Both LA Law and the OC used the lesbian story line for ratings. Once they got the ratings it was like the writers said "oh Shit, what do we do now?"

I think after S2 Ilene's head exploded and what came out was S3. Dana's death was by far the worse slap in face to TLW fans. Dana was strong enough to fight cancer and she should have actually went on tour BEING A PROFESSIONAL TENNIS PLAYER!! I was hoping S4 would start off like it was all a nightmare and they redue S3 again. But, it didn't and then it just blew!! I am still mad about that. AND NO CARMEN!!! WTF BUNNY IS SO NEEDED!!!

I stopped watching ER because of that story line. It was highly stereotyped. They blew on that! But, I love Elizabeth Mitchell. (Heart Melts)

I vote Sarah and Lori to become writers for the L word!! I think it needs some saving and it didn't even start yet!!! WHO IS WITH ME??

The very worst lesbian moment on TV...is the fact that there ARE NOT enough lesbian moments on TV, good or bad.

(As far as The L Word is concerned...I have to go with the way Marina is handled. From Season 2 onward, they've wasted a really great character.)

So, you made me sit here and drink a cup of tea after a cup of tea (thanks god I hate coffee, imagine that!) and finally decide to join the community.

It's gonna be a bit (more than a bit) of a cliche to say how happy I am to see somebody worshiping and coveting those little lesbian tv minutes, organising them in their heads (hm that kind of reminds me on "It's a fucking shrine, Alice! Bordering on psychotic, serial killer, obsessive type shrine!!!" :D)...

Anyway, I wish my girlfriends (friends! straight ones!) would assent and finally take a look at any of my "recommendations".

This way I have the "She makes me watch it, but I'm not going to. Ever." show.

Together with apologizes for wasting the space and time, keep up the good work.

(even way too much for the first comment here)

The moment they killed of Dana my sister said they'd bring her back as a ghost or something and when they did on the last episode of season 4 I thought that was a bad idea too. I love dana but don't bring her back for guest episodes reminding us how much we miss her on the show.

 Stop watching the O.C after they made alex crazy

A very good point about the 'moral messages', the L Word has done that with quite a few things in the more recent series (the iraq war for example). I don't object to the idea of TV having a message, but they don't seem to give the audience any credit for working things out by themselves. Still persevere in watching it though : )

I'm glad Buffy wasn't included. Tara and Willow were my favourite thing in the show, but her dying tragically made their love story all the more epic for me.

Worst moments have to include the Jenny and Carmen scene in series 2. Uuh

sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion

Even though it made your best lesbian moments, I thought the last episode of Xena was the worst lesbian moment ever. Well, I guess a whole episode can't count as a lesbian moment, but it sure did suck.

The major problem I had with the whole Tara death thingy was the fact that Joss Whedon/David Fury et al had stated repeatedly to fans of the character that they were aware of the dead/evil lesbian stereotype and were never going to buy into it. And then bam - one dead lesbian and another who goes crazy evil with grief. Huh. Add to this the fact that Tara was killed at the end of an episode which contained more physical affection between the girls than every episode up to that point put together. A lot of Willow/Tara fans felt that the message was 'lesbian sex leads to instant death'.

Just..bah. The whole thing left a nasty taste in my mouth. On the other hand, the sale of all my Buffy memorobilia soon after paid for a new guitar, so it wasn't all bad.

(Actually, I still have a signed limited edition Spike & Dru comic book. Anyone interested? </pimp>)

ETA - My vote for worst lesbian moment goes to the ratings-grabbing fake lesbian kiss between Ally and Ling on Ally McBeal. "Oh, maybe we should try it just to be sure we're not gay!" "Okay!" Smooch. "Nah, we're straight." "Totally."

Like anyone could still be straight after kissing Lucy Liu. Ha!

Excellent top five!  I agree with you all and everyone else who posted that Dana dying on The L Word was definitely number 1.  So much so that they have to keep bringing her back in dream sequences to keep fans happy.  Can't wait for next week.

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