excuse my ignorance but what's the political angle of femme?

-MJ

smile. i just slept with your girlfriend :)

well i would never have short short hair and i dont where much makeup....so 'chapstick'?!

I've always scoffed at the idea that Nikki Wade is a lipstick lesbian, which just proves the point that lipstick does not a lipstick lesbian make.  It seems like something the marketing people at ITV came up with.  I mean, yeah, she wears makeup, but she's not particularly femme (or feminine, to get away from the jargon) in her attitude or behavior or how she relates to romantic prospects.

--abzug

Visit http://www.badgirlsannex.com!

I agree that "lipstick lesbian" feels outdated.  

I only hear straight people say it, actually. hahaha 
I've never really liked it either. 

I definitely think "femme" is a more current, relevant term - but it is absolutely a word that means different things to different people.

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http://feministhousewife.blogspot.com

Yeah, I've always found the whole definition thing confusing too.... but I stumbled across a website that claimed to have the answer! According to 'The Lipstick Lesbian Page' (http://www.belladonna.org/lipsticklesbian.html) ...

Femme = Feminine Lesbian who is attracted to Butch women

Lipstick Lesbian = Feminine Lesbian who is attracted to other Feminine women

 wikipedia backs it up... but adds that Lipstick Lesbian is also used for any feminine looking lesbian. While by any definition I'm a lipstick lez, I have to say that I'm a big fan of the term 'chapstick lesbian' - becos what kind of idiot decided all lesbians should fit two polarised sterotypes... chicks like Nikki Wade, Ellen, etc who are definately not super butchy but not really exeptionally feminine fit much better there.

Anytime I have heard femme or lipstick lesbian it means the same thing. Its a very straight term. Its pretty much says who looks like the woman in the relationship or who has the feminine role.

of course for the Secret Lives of Women they have polar opposites (in looks) dating so you can easily pick who has is the 'woman' in the relationship.

Ive already heard those terms used in joke because it is so old school and only older straight people say it and really mean it.

They're just labels that people use to understand lesbian relationships. Sharing roles in a relationship sometimes just boggles people and they feel the need to put things into categories. Because honestly straight people aren't going to take that much time thinking about gay relationships so they just see what looks like a spade and call it a spade. Its just laziness. That is why the show says 'lipstick lesbians' as a secret because nobody questions the 'straight' looking girls as being gay.

I mean those poor straight people...we would put tattoos on our heads for easier detection but I'll have to insist on the end of hate crimes before I even consider starting that campaign. :P

I think "lipstick lesbian" is a visual term, used to describe a lesbian whose appearance is in line with what is traditionally thought to be "feminine". Dresses, make-up, high heels etc.

"Femme" is a more spirtual term, used to describe the personality. They fit the bill of the traditional "woman" in a relationship.

So, where clothes do make the "lipstick lesbian", they don't necessarily make the femme. (My wife can wear all the jeans and boots she wants, but I know that inside, she's still a femme. And why is it that I find femmes in butch clothing to be so damned hot? But I digress.)

As for labels ... they only hurt if we try to limit someone to our belief of what they mean. Otherwise, they're just another descriptive tool, no different than the color of hair, or height and weight.

Lisa

I wear my hair very short, no makeup, unless the occasion calls for it, but I love skirts, flowery prints and sparkling jewelry. I'm attracted to other women who dress the same. But, I don't think that makes me a "lipstick lesbian."

I'm also attracted to what Bex and Annabella describes as a "chapstick lesbian."   But, I don't think that necessarily makes me "femme".

I can only be who I am and if someone wants to label me...then let 'em.  I have no problem with that. If it makes them more comfortable than that's fine with me. Hey...maybe that makes me an "earth mother" type. :-)

Peace, Joy and Love
*B*

.... aren't lipstick lesbians those that can hide better their lesbian selves???

lol ....

but seriously, we have a girl on our soccer team that we call 'soft' lesbian. not because she wears make up or girly clothes (most of us do that too) but because she still kicks like a 'girl' ...

(on note, we have only 1 straight girl in our team, she doesn't kick like a girl, is she a buch straight?) *g*

To me, lipstick lesbian is the girl equivalent of "straight-acting" for boys.  Its kind of an insult.  They also date other feminine-looking women.  Much like sports dykes, there seems to be an explicit a-politicality about it.  Like, especially NOT a feminsit.  Honestly, it feels like a straight people term to me.  I don't hear a lot of people in the gay community use it.

 As a self-identified femme who is not particuarly attracted to butches, my own personal definition of femme is "the desire to make a woman wet just with the way the hem of my skirt brushes against my thigh"  While it can be confused with straight-girl gender expressions, its really not the same.  There's more equality, more looking them straight in the eye (no pun intended).  More give and take, and engagement in the sexual energy between partners 

 I think its cool, the diversity of opinions about these terms.  On the other hand, its also kind of sad that there's so little communication outside of our direct community that there's not a lot of consensus

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One of the keys to happiness is a bad memory. ~ Rita Mae Brown

Hee! I do carry around chapstick. I'm not butch or femme somewhere kind of in the middle.  For me, I'll say futch as said in SSW since I have long hair, I don't wear makeup and I'm a jeans/t-shirts(polos), little androgynous in the clothing but not butch butch type of person. Heh. I agree with the comments that "lipstick lesbian" isn't really used.  Normally I just hear femme. That being said, I am really attracted to these femme girls. They're cute. ;)

We don't get WE here so I couldn't see the show.

i had no idea labels could be so complicated and interpreted in such different ways!!! im glad i have no idea what to label myself in, it's actually the ppl around me who feel the need to categorize me, and keep breaking their heads about it: love make up, fashion, SHOES, totally a girly girl who's attracted by girly girls, but im also very sporty and love beer... this is kinda like the i'm gay - im so not gay thread posted a while ago!!!

So I watched the show and it wasn't bad. I had seen a previous episode from season 1 they did about Late-in-life Lesbians so I knew what to expect already. I recommend catching that episode as well.

They actually had a good mix of people on the show. The woman in the picture, Amanda, claims to have never been interested in guys and doesn't think she could ever have sex with them. Then there was Stephanie Adams, a black woman, who claims to be the first Playbody centerfold to come out as a lesbian. The two woman who are famous for Girlbar and Dinah Shore, Sandy and Robin, were also featured.

Most of the women who were shown had butch girlfriends.

Throughout the episode, they asked all types of random people on the street what their definition of a lipstick lesbian was and they all had different answers.

Got to agree with the other Brits here, it seems to mean different things here in the UK than other places.  Lipstick lesbian to me means someone who 'dabbles' in lesbianism but isn't really lesbian or bi.  Femme is a lesbian who is 'stereotypically' feminine in appearance.

I would identify as femme but I don't see it as an opposite to butch, my other half is very similar to me and I would class her as femme too.  We actually do look alike and both have red hair so I guess we are feminine looking narccisistic ginger femmes? 

I guess it's not as clear cut as people thought it was when certain terms were coined. 

Diversity isn't so easily pigeon holed.

You have Lena Heady, Stephanie March, even Kate Walsh! But no Alexandra Hedison! Please please please make a list of those who should have been on it! Including her!

AGM

after reading everyones responses I feel inspired to add my two cents:

 I think I agree with most when the term "lipstick" is outdated. Labels are not something I try to conform to or live my life by. I enjoy the color pink, wearing makeup, carrying a purse, and putting a bow in my hair if i wish. However I enjoy polo shirts, Cargo shorts, and wallets  I guess this places me somewhere in the middle of this spectrum.

 As females there has been many a social guidelines laid before us which historically we have continued to push past. TV shows and the media have no choice but to feed into those stereotype-casting roles and make people see one side (usually quite dramatic) of a situation. Thus an Extreme Femme and a Butch female making a couple.

I say we allow them to keep making such ludicris assumptions that we all fit into their stragetically placed catagories and continue walk about confusing the hell out of them. we are not defined by what we wear, how we look, or whom we date...remember that!

to me. In NYC, I don't hear that term much. Here we use Aggressive, femme or butch for the most part. Lipstick refers to the ladies who don't look "obviously" lesbian. Femme basically. Po-tay-toe, Po-tat-oh.

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