"O" magazine tackles the "trend" of lesbianism

the lesbian mystique.

can't we just accept that lesbians are women and as such, are just like and as varied as other women?

well, i guess the only problem with that is then there'd be no story to write about. 

This is going to be discussed on Oprah tomorrow and they even have Jackie Warner on, practically identical to the show Tyra had last week!

I think that apart from the "women loving women with masculine traits" theme, there's also the "women loving women who are on the same level" theme. Looking at Ms. Barris's story, the husband described himself as non-ambitious(that's a word, right?) and instead of being the traditional "bread winner" he was the stay at home mom. And this is a constant theme in todays world, you have the successful woman latched on to someone like Barris's ex and then people act surprise when she leaves him for another man who's on the same level of success as hers, or in this case another woman. This is not to say that being a stay at home or stay at home dad is a bad thing, but it's simply about having standards. Which is why choir, I also think this is Oprah's first step in easing herself and Gayle out of the closet. Steadman's successful as well, but I don't think he's quite on Gayle's level. lol

 

atricles like this should be written were hetero's can read this. not on a website were all gay women know what your talking about and have heard it a gazillion times. how many straight women do yo know come on afterellen..? probably slim to none. we need to be getting this across to the world!

good article though. i hate oprah.

She has a show like this every friggin year, and proceeds to act as though she has discovered a new continent. She should do a show on her past guests who appeared on previous shows with the exact same topic. Are they still together?

 

Yeah, it certainly could have painted a better, more inclusive picture. It was certainly ironic to quote Bordo saying that the public doesn't accept lesbianism beyond either androgyny or femme and then harp so much on lesbians who are drawn to "masculine" traits in other women.

But it did have it's good moments too- the quote from Bordo, the two femmes together, facing the struggle of coming out, noting that it can be late in life etc. And it ended with two women happily raising a family.

While I agree they could have done better, it still gave a bit of positive exposure as well which does some good for the O audience of mostly middle aged hetero women. Maybe they'll raise their kids to be accepting.

Everything Oprah does is half-assed. Her show used to be full assed, and then after those cattle guys in TX sued her, she got all middle of the road and nonoffensive. She has no edge, she over thinks everything without being thoughtful. Sure, she's a big deal and wields a lot of clout because she's rich, but she's hit a terminal disconnect with reality that I suspect will never return.

I cannot believe I'm the only one who recognised her? She's my non-Rachel-Maddow idol - she writes amazing books about female masculinity, she's a gender and queer theorist, has taught at several universities, and is currently Professor of English and Director of the centre for feminist research at USC. She is absolutely amazing.

I have to say, though, that Oprah does tend to pander to the masses. But at least she actually tackles the subject, and tries to let as many people as possible understand what to them is a horrendous, ungodly idea. Perhaps it's different in the US, but in conservative areas (like where I'm from), we'd be quite happy to have this sort of visibility. It makes people less grossed out about us, even if we're rather de-sexed.

And just briefly going back to this not-all-lesbians-are-masculine thing - I feel this debate always separates us into the camp of lesbians that yells "butch is SO outdated! get over it!" and the others (like me) who yell "we should accept ALL lesbians regardless of their gender!" There's NOTHING wrong with butch lesbians, except the fact that society won't accept them. It's horrible for them - they are the most visible, most recognised, straight society won't have them, and now neither will lesbian society. Sure, it's great that so many lesbians have moved on from the "who's the man in the relationship" thing, but that's NOT what butch lesbians are about, and it makes me incredibly sad to think that just because some parts of society have "moved on" from gender, that gender non-conforming lesbians aren't treated as equal in society.

Grace,

Thanks for writing this blog and sharing your thoughts on the article.

I decided to email the editors of O with my opinion.

I feel that by actually writing to them, I'm a good choirgirl. lol

I think that it's good that lesbianism is becoming a topic that people aren't so scared to discuss.  I also think that it is the perfect opportunity to "school" heterosexuals on lesbianism.

A lot of times in the past, I've heard straight people complain that gay people want to push our agendas on them.  By straight people being the ones to open the discussion, it gives us a chance to educate them- they are much more likely to listen and learn, I believe.

It's good to have these talks between straight, gay, bi, trans, queer etc. now so that the next generations won't have to go through what we're going through with Prop 8, etc.

Finally it seems like homophobia is starting to look "uncool" to straight people.

 

 

"Food, sex & art..."

Having made it one of my life long endeavors to avoid anything Oprah "team" endorsed - I was a little (guilty) excited when I heard Ellen was going to be on the cover.

Not that I'll buy it.

Being someone who is fairly omni sexual - as far as women go I've never experienced "Love at first sight" type attraction, it's always been a slow burn that got warmer as I got to know them. I've felt attracted to the gamut. I don't like divided camps... some mornings I wake up and I want army boots but that doesn't mean I've fallen out of love with hot pink nail polish. Butch, Femme, whatever... labels make some people feel safe and organized - even some queers.

Like Willy Nelson said;
"To all the girls I once caressed
And may I say I've held the best
For helping me to grow
I owe a lot I know
To all the girls I've loved before"

I have been told by my gay and straight friends that I don't really fit the mold- whatever that means.  I am who I am and I make no apologies

 I ware short sleeve shirts under long sleeve shirts under short sleeve shirts

When I had short hair (never had long hair in my entire life), I was regarded as androgynous. After I broke my heart, I vowed to have a change in image, and grew my hair long. I'm still me, but now I can be construed as "feminine". I get attracted to geeky people, irregardless of their appearance.

"Not all lesbians are masculine or butch. Furthermore, you can wear skirts, dresses and makeup and still be attracted to women who wear skirts, dresses and makeup. Not all lesbians buck gender norms, and those who do not buck gender norms are just as gay as those who do. Gender identity/expression and sexual orientation are not always intertwined."

You're so right!  Unfortunately, many of the celebrity lesbians out there have a "butch / femme" appearance. E.g. Ellen and Portia, Melissa and Tammy, Rachel and Susan etc etc etc. Except for perhaps Cat and Jennifer Cora / Anne Will and Miriam Meckel... 

Hmmm...

Still, it is a good sign that a publication that has been traditionally marketed to straight audiences touched upon sexual orientation and gender. I will take well-intentioned articles on sexuality and gender that slightly miss the mark over no visibility at all.

I agree, the more we have a topic in a typical beaver clever household the less shocked people will be to see my girlfriend and I kissing on the sidewalk. :)

Oh Oprah.... well... she's sweet for at least trying, but why is she beating the same dead, old horse over and over, in an uneducated manner? Should WE explain straights too, the same way?

Howcome the same Oprah lady, who did this nice, sympathetic, leveled, world-exclusive with the "pregnant man" (who even inspired a certain storyline on a show which shall remain forgotten, nudge nudge) - can still be so backwards and "explaining" us "trendy lesbos" to the straights as if we were prize cattle?

And.. Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that Oprah on the cover photo seems that the only thing on her mind is going to the Oval Office and eating White House pie with Michelle? Oh, the double entendres!!!!!! Maybe that's why Oprah had to reaffirm her heterosexuality - to be allowed to hang out with the Obamas?

...no-one comes between Oprah and her delicatessen ;)

 

// those harper seals are biaaatchesss - Bridget McManus //

oops double comment... my internet went caca.. sorry!!

i dont really care if lesbianism is a trent atm (not that i think it is!) but to be completely honest its made it a little easier for me to come out haha.. especially around my age group! the only thing is ill STAY with girls where alot will go back to guys but its all good :) and it being more mainstream.. trend or not is slowly getting people used to the idea and its not so 'us and them' anymore! the masculine thing is crap

 

AS for oprah... blaaaaaaaaaaaahhh

*shakes head*

being a lesbian has never been trendy... if that were true straight girls would take no offense when labeled a dyke for standing up for themselves.  

bi now is a different story... get your facts straight Oprah...get em straight.

(straight? get it? pun? anyone? haha...) 

 

 

Watch Me Get Naughty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWXaj5B0rKk&feature=channel_page

I think what Painterly meant to write was "Beaver Cleaver" as in the old television show "Leave It to Beaver", their last name was Cleaver.  But I must say I think I dig the term "Beaver Clever" much better!  I like to think that I, myself am beaver clever, after all my girl is a hot cell stress biologist and I happen to think her beaver is very clever!

I agree with a number of the comments here that it is good that at least a media outlet that is extremely popular in society today is publishing an article such as this. There are definitely parts that I disagree with, but overall, it's good to have it out there and in the world to spark discussions such as these. My basic comment, though is that there are so many labels that are given to us and that we give ourselves. Sexuality is a very personal thing, so if you're femme, butch, soft femme, sporty, whatever...who's to say that you can't be one or more of those things at any given time and/or even attracted to one or more of those things at any given time?

I understand how frustrating it is to be labelled too girly to be gay, but as for me, I AM pretty femme for the most part and I AM attracted to tomboi, genderqueer, butch women, as well as transguys. And really, I've gotten more crap about that, than if I were dating some "hot chick" according to what society wants to see no? because it's easier for some people to imagine you with a stereotypically pretty girl to fulfill their porn idea of two lesbians instead of having to confront their personal issues towards those to don't fit into their neat gender categories.

The reactions to people I date are:

oh well if you're gonna date a girl, why wouldn't you date a "real" girl, meaning, a "real girl according to what society thinks is acceptable/hot for a girl."

if you want to date masculine women why wouldn't you just date a man?

Both those arguments are really insulting. So eff that. I say: power to the femmes, power to the butches and power to everyone in between and outside. The issue is that Oprah focused on one narrow idea for her article, and making ageneralization.

It just goes back to the L Word no? Some people were pissed that it was only "hot femme lesbians" and no other representation, while other people were applauding saying "thank god there is another representation on tv of lesbians that I can relate to"

My question is, why can't there be both in the media?

Deborah Britzman explores the idea of normalcy in her queer theory work. Her interpretations and readings on these ideas of normalcy and difference open a world of internal self-realization for those of us who struggle daily to fit into a heteronormative environment. Normalcy is that morality which has been arbitrarily placed upon us all by the more powerful members of our human society in the past, fortified in the present and most likely will be sustained in the future unless it is critically challenged; it is a state of mind in which most of us accept as a place for human beings in a proper order of existence and is largely unquestioned (Britzman, 1998). 

The struggle then becomes the balancing of self-identity with the societal representations of what is appropriate and normal. Britzman says the purpose of queer pedagogy “is to provoke conditions of learning that might allow for an exploration that unsettles the sediments of what one imagines when one imagines normalcy, what one imagines when one imagines difference” (Britzman, 1998, p. 95).  She introduces this idea of sitting on the fringe as the “other”, meaning the voice that is not only marginalized but also is considered to be outside the realms of acceptable normalcy (Britzman, 1998). This idea of “other” in respect to normal and different has greater implications for those who can navigate through society and create invisible identities. For those who can not hide and sit on the fringe to be picked off by a heteronormative society fight the good fight for all of us. However, the idea of labels such as fem, butch, dyke and so on are no different than the labels placed upon our community by the mainstream public. We must as Britzman would suggest remove the labels and categories within our own community and mind set in order to further the knowledge and awareness of the greater heternormative society.  

Britzman, D. (1998). Lost Subjects, Contested Objects: Toward a Psychoanalytic Inquiry of Learning. New York: State University of New York Press.

Not too many years ago lesbians lived in a coded world so to speak. In fact, when I was younger, naïve about anything lesbian and struggling to come out (to myself), I focused on “butch” women (even if they turned out to be straight) BECAUSE it was the only sign of “people like me”. Well, as I matured it turns out those women are nothing like me (femme for femme), but I was doing “the best I could with the information I had at the time”, a phrase a counselor used to explain lopsided methods in uncertain situations of any kind. Stereotypes and fear-based views are enmeshed in societies and each individual has to struggle to define themselves--and that evolves through the years too! Many people perpetuate the stereotype of the masculine, butch or unfeminine lesbian because it is less threatening to them! Men hate to think a woman is unavailable to them, but if she is “undesirable” as a woman, well that’s the reason, not their male prowess. And woman desiring to cover-up their own sexuality can always “fem up” and pass, and in some cases, they feel that at least they are no less a woman.

Lesbianism is too tied-up with “being a woman", but that’s because of society, not fact or lesbian-thinking. Gender issues are a seperate base of issues than lesbian issues, but try to explain that to family and friends who barely want to think of the issues at all! In my mind of course I’m a woman, even when I was wearing farm clothes and pocket-tees, muck boots or flannel. But when I was young (on the farm), doing “man's work” it tortured me that I was “masculine". Well, I wasn’t. I was a girl doing farm work. Where did I get my fears from? Society and its stereotypes.

Is alllll about stereotyping,generalizing and misunderstanding -which goes with close mindedness-. I dont really see the necessity to belong to some sort of category say? We should be able to be ourselves but then again that is not the way society will view anyone that is not like them. I have to fight with the stereotyping and generalizing at home, like the butch in the artical said, I too am a shame for my family!. But dont get me wrong, Im not butch at all, Im more of a tomboy I enjoy dressing comfortable, shorts down to the knee, bermudas, tees, or what they call -very gay looking tees, you know those that have some sort of saying anywhere- that is just my style!.Everyone thinks I want to looks like a boy and act like one? o_O. Nooooo thanks, does loving soccer,being fairily stronger than most females and love reptiles makes me a man? O_O.  Sadly, everyone thinks is just a trend, that I dress/am this way because I want to look gay? Hell this.is.just.how.i.dress.I AM.gay!. It angers me the tremendous lack of intelligence of the mainstream american or just people in general, people who do not or fail to understand. 

Nowadays though you do see more of an awareness say in the 'outside world' or maybe they are just being more observant, because now people who think I do not have two ears, wishper behind your back 'Omg look ses totally a lesbian-ewww' , or some that just stare at you so sweetley faced as if they knew your 'big secret'.Do any of you get that?.

One more thing -and I might get shit for this- but hey dont you also think we are to be blamed when it comes to the 'lesbian-likes-to-sex-every-woman-they-see-and-do-drugs-subsequently-having-AIDS' stereotype,we the only ones that could have possibly shown them we might be that way?. I am not generalizing, because I know not everyone is like that -To each their own you know?. I was just saying, because I got an email from a friend that said something like 'sick of the way everyone views the LGTB community, then think and do something about it!, change your hard night outs, one night stands, and all that junk and show them that we can be succesful not so trashy people' -Of course this is not quoted exactly the same, but you all got the message right?- 

------------------------------------------------

Let it Rock,Let it roll

Helloooo!?  Take a look at Cat Cora - bless those two for being out, being proud of who they are, extending their family in the public eye.  Oprah should be doing a show about those two - and the millions of other lesbian (and gay male) couples who come in every size, shape, colour and level of "gayness".  Heck, let's go beyond how we look and get right to how we procreate!

just because a woman is with a man doesn't mean she's straight. so maybe it's not so much a case of all these women suddenly and mysteriously up and leaving men, but rather a case of a whole bunch of them stopped lying to themselves about being bisexual or gay.

and yes, i do realize that in some cultures, women - and men, for that matter - do know that they are attracted to the same sex, but it's not safe to let that be known. there are countries that imprison, torture and execute people who are gay, or suspected of being gay. however, that's not the case in this part of the world. luckily.

I have read through most of the posts on this topic and find that discussions about 'butch' or 'femme' lesbians seem to focus on how a person looks.  Not in all cases, but in most.

I don't think that these concepts are that shallow.  For one thing, I think they are inherently related to lesbian culture because a straight woman wearing jeans, lumberjack shirt and trainers is unlikely to be regarded as a 'butch'.  The most extreme might be that she will be considered a bit of a tomboy.  However, a lesbian wearing these clothes will, all too often, be defined as 'butch' both from without the lesbian community and from within.  This suggests to me that butch and femme have a specific place within lesbian culture and are about being lesbian and not about being a replicant of the hetersexual paradigm.

Secondly, I would suggest that if you strip the butch and the femme woman, each to her skin she will still be butch or femme.  If this is true then it can't be anything to do with how she appears in her clothes.

So this leads to the inevitable question - what exactly is a butch or femme?

I wonder if anyone could offer a definition.  I doubt that we can.  And if we can't, can we even claim to know of what it is that we speak?

 

 

 

It seems to me, after just getting done watching the episode of Oprah about this topic, that some people are struggling with understanding the difference between bisexual and late in life lesbians.  It's really fustrating because then these people that have no clue, really start judging the rest of us.  To me, it really seemed like a mixure of both in this episode since they were focusing on women who left men and some of them did identify themselves as being a lesbian because they have been with that partner for many many years.  Of course we all know, not all of us have been with a man before and have absolutely no desire whatsoever!  However, one wished not to be identified as gay and she was the only one who went back to a man.  So I think it's not fair to call this a trend of lesbianism in the article at all and that there is a misguided call on those who are bisexual and those who are just late in life lesbians.  Also, they did breifly talk about women who are attracted to butch women or ones that have more masculine characteristics.  Again, I think this is a weak arguement on their case for saying why a woman would leave a man, but then the woman they end up with doesn't really look that womanly as that is what Oprah pretty much said.  Hmmm...i'm not sure if I am explaining myself as well as I was thinking all of this in my head.  Maybe I will get a little bit of my point across.

Overall I thought the article and the show did as good a job it could given who was doing the talking.  As a poster above said, Oprah is straight.  While she may have the most talented writers at her hands when it comes down to it, she's a straight woman talking to a lot of other straight women. 

I love Oprah so it's hard to be mad at her.  I think she was trying.  She found some really interesting stories of women loving women, leading normal lives-because we're normal people-that was the point.  The previews and the way she did some of her question asking was purely for shock value-to get those mid-western moms to tune in.

I did find the article calling lesbians "fadish" or "fashionable" a little awkward and questionable.  I'm almost 30 and I came out just over a year ago.  It may seem like a new phenomenon but I think that it's due, in part, to more women coming out when they're in their late twenties, thirties, forties, etc.   Making statements like that only lights the fire under my mother (a mid-western mom) to assume that being gay is a choice or a phase-which it is not.

OhioLezGirlinNYC

http://oh-iolez-girlinnyc.blogspot.com/

 

krscat77 i really didn't know the big o rateings were down, nope i checked myself gay cause well thats how i roll pilgrum peace out

"but we've arrived at a moment in the popular culture when it all suddenly seems almost fashionable—or at least, acceptable."

Dear lord, girls kissing girls is almost acceptable these days, can you believe it? Its like they feel its abd enough such a weird act as 'lesbianisim' is fashionable- but it being acceptable? Thats crazy talk.