Well, as an ex-pat New Zealander (admittedly living in the US)  I feel like I'm uniquely qualified to answer this question (don't ask me why, I'm sticking with my fantasy here). 

I don't personally approve of Kiri's comments, as much as I admire and respect her. I don't think Hayley is a flash-in-the-pan, because, honestly, she's been around for quite a while (she started YOUNG). I'd imagine Kiri is kinda been told-off for her comments in the kiwi press, because kiwi's love Hayley and are fiercely protective of her.

That said, mind you, I do kinda agree with the critique here. I too prefer Hayley's more traditionally classical pieces over her more modern stuff. Her voice works so incredibly well for the former that I kinda regret the 'averageness' that the latter seems to be in comparison to the former.

However, she IS young (good ghu, I can't believe she's only 21, I keep forgetting that) so she's doing what all young singers should do; namely exploring her repertoire, seeing where she is, pushing herself, and finding out where she wants to go now, what works and what doesn't work. As she matures she'll settle down and find her slot, but until then, I actually admire her for challenging herself.

And I agree, as much as she has wonderful stage presence for her age, in comparison to someone like Kiri, she does come off lacking (unlike pop, in opera you can't fake that). But I honestly think that comes with age and experience. She'll get there, she has the talent and I think she'll be around for quite a long time (admittedly, as a kiwi, I am a tad biased in that regard).

At 33, I have to say though, I'm feeling like a dirty old woman looking at those pics of Hayley ... it's just wrong I tell you! I remember when she was this tiny little thing! 

Oh, and kiwis not attacking? Try hunting whales in our waters, or the waters we patrol. Or trying to bring nuclear-power and/or weapons to our shores. Or screwing with rugby. Then you'll see our nasty sides :) 

Sarah

 

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http://kiwi-grrl.livejournal.com/

as someone who has been listening to her for a long time, I never saw her as a opera-singer, poperasinger or whatever. She's more a classical singer, in my opinion. Her classical stuff is better then her poppy stuff, although I do like her version of Joni Mitchell's Both Sides Now.

You're right, she IS still young, and has enough time to work on her presence and stuff like that, and I really think she's here to stay.

I kinda agree with the Dame.

Ms. Westenra voice really doesn't stand out to me. She doesn't seem to be able to sustain when she sings, her top is thin (top register of her voice that is), and she lacks any kind of major power in her voice. Take away the mic, I'm not sure what you'd have left. I just don't see her lasting the ages. I'm sure she's a very nice person though.

I grew up on opera and Dame Kiwi, and I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of the Hayley Westenra, popera sort of thing. Sarah McLachlan,Charlotte Church and all that sort of thing are not up my alley (though Queen mixes rock and opera VERY well). The first song I heard of Hayley Westenra's was her cover of Joni Mitchell's Both Sides Now - the song is an incredible description of love and loss, first with Joni Mitchell's folksy youth and then with the deep, smoky sound of age. Hayley Westenra's cover sounded like an incredibly bad, cheesy, poppish song, with no depth whatsoever. Give me Pavarotti, or give me Britney! I'm not a big fan of crossovers.

I think the thing with opera is that the necessary depth comes with experience and age, rather than just talent. It's probably why most singers who play Mimi (La Boheme) or Susanna (Le Nozze di Figaro) are usually a lot older than their characters.

Charlotte Church did this whole genre MUCH better. It seems she may have turned out to be a bit of a flash in the pan, but she has a couple of albums she can always be proud of. Before this post I had never heard of Hayley Westenra. I have to say, I'm just not impressed. As was mentioned before, her high notes are waaay too thin. There seems to be no depth to her voice. I'd take Sarah Brightman or an old Charlotte Church recording over Hayley's voice any day. What Kiri Te Kanawa said was a bit harsh, but she's an opera diva, so what else can we expect?!

Being a operatically trained vocalist, I have a couple of things to say:

I really don't think that she's in the realm of opera at all because she doesn't fluidly move the line- meaning it's chopped up musically and there are breaths in there where, stylistically, there shouldn't be. Also, she has no connection between her lower and upper register, which, again, ruins the fluidity of the music- one thing opera is so big on.

 On the other hand, I do enjoy her voice and what she does with her music- so while i argue that she doesn't have a classical voice, in my opinion, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy her voice, because I do. We definately need a variety of music and music styles in the world.

I know a bit about opera. Singing a song written for opera doesn't make it opera. I'll agree, it's probably "classical" if you want to go there. And whether it's Hayley this year, or Charlotte Church in the past, attempting the songs they are attempting using the technique they are using, forcing their voices beyond their natural maturity is reckless and a badddd idea.

Different types of voices age differently. A tenor has a much different peak point than a baritone- something more people know than that a mezzo-soprano has a different peak than a coloratura. Women's voices in general don't reach their full potential in their 20s. period.

So rather than look at this as an older generation looking down on a younger, it's more along the lines of: here's someone who could eventually (if they actually kept with operatic training) have a top-notch opera voice, but is getting greater press and media because she's 21 and hot/adorable (not my type, but whatev) and using her voice irresponsibly for a long-term career, while there are legitimate opera singers who could blow her out of the water, but they are in their 30s and 40s so they have no real press beyond the world of opera.

Course if you want to see an amazing operatic performance by a singer with more mainstream sensibility, you could always check out Kristin Chenoweth singing "Glitter and Be Gay" from Candide here.

*cough* Natalie Dessay. Sorry I'm actually incapable of talking about Opera without mentioning her.

Well, as a Kiwi who is still living in Kiwi-land I can tell you that it's not really that big a deal. The only reason I heard anything about it was because the guy who sits next to me at work is a personal friend of Dame Kiri's and a certified opera nut.

Dame Kiri is an internationally renowned opera singer whereas I'm surprised that anyone outside of New Zealand has actually heard of that other chick...but maybe I'm not all that qualified to answer because I am not an opera fan.

And I agree wholeheartedly with Sarah in Chicago above, just try and bring a nuclear powered ship into New Zealand waters...and we'll send you right back to where you came from! (To quote one of our beloved prime ministers, "I can smell the uranium on your breath")

I am from Hayley's home town and she is much more famous in Europe than you might imagine. Her first international album was the fastest selling "classical" album ever in the UK and is still the best selling of the decade. She features on the sound track of The Merchant of Venice and several other films and TV thems and has a pretty good CV. She featured with Vittorio Grigolo on the recent commemorative edition of West Side Story, which is the first major version since Te Kanawa appeared with Careeras. (Which is not to say that she and Vittorio were not as miscast or more so than Te Kanawa and Careeras were).

I believe some of the comments above are underating her: but let's get one thing straight, she is not an opera singer. So she is not in the same world as Te Kanawa in that sense, although I think Te Kanawa put her foot in it. Although, to be fair it was the interviewer who mentioned Westenra as an example of a Popera Singer, which I don't think is appropriate.

I think it has to be mentioned that Decca put a number of singers who were crossover or popera in the "classical" bracket for marketing reasons. But Westenra who had had some voice training from Dame Malvina Major had said that she didn't intend "belting out arias" while she was still a teenager, because she was afraid this could damage her voice. She was very worried about this because many people were predicting this would happen (she started very young). But she ended up doing some classical anyway, probably, I think, because Decca wanted her too, to give verisimilutude to the "classical" label, but she enraged the purists by altering some of it. Whether it was because she couldn't do it, or was afraid of straining her voice, I don't know; but she popified a couple of things and made quite pleasant pop/folk ditties out of them, which was probably more in line with what her core audience wanted anyway.

It was suggested that she train for opera/lieder when she was about 12, but she decided not to.

That video of her singing "I Dreamed a Dream", was when she toured New Zealand with Russel Watson in 2001 and was only 13-years-old. The O Mio Babbino needs to be seen in the light of it being done by an untrained 16-year-old.

In my opinion she is essentially in the "easy listening" genre. A warbler of ballads, although she has been moving a little more in the pop direction.

The version you have given of "The Water is Wide" is not her best either. She was pretty young there too.

I know some were disappointed when she decided not to train for opera, but others thought it was wise because she didn't really have an opera level/type voice anyway, which is why I am interested in MelissaC5's comments. She is the youngest Unicef ambassodor ever and I have a feeling that she may leave music and do something like that. I think that she did the first record hoping to get enough money to get through University from it, but when it took off really big decided to make a pack with the devils of fame and fortune, for a time at least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFgKMxjGVT8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzd6mbfp6rs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4RskPhHSyo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mg7OiqgTO8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw4RkaHNkDc

Hayley's voice doesn't have enough presence or life to be an operatic voice.  I think it's a nice voice, very boys-choirish, but not an operatic one, or even a very good classical one.

I actually wasn't responding to your post (I don't know if you thought I was?), but you make some good points.  What I was trying to say was 1) I agree with Kiri about "popera" and 2) why I don't think Hayley has an opeatic voice.  I guess I strayed a bit from the origional subject, but I do think it's relevent.  I mentioned it because I, like yourself, don't consider Hayley's style to be anything close to opera (and yes, I know this is coming a bit out of left field but, I've had a long, crazy day that has completely destroyed my ability to make my point, please stay with me).  I haven't really heard much of her stuff (and, to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of what I have heard), but I think that she has anything approximating an operatic voice.  It seemed like Kiri was trying to say this (perhaps the interviewer asked something about Hayley) and then got a little nasty and cliche.

 Oh my, if this post makes no sense, please forgive me.  Basically I agree with you.  I'm going to go take a nap.

I must say I received comments from this site on Google Alerts and would like to thank the contributers for a well balanced discussion on this subject, they are few and far between.  Hayley does have a lovely sweet voice and now lots of recordings and money, however the point is will this last, especially if she is not having voice training, at 21 she could have an operatic career if she wants one, but it does take yrs of study and training.

 I think Dame Kiri`s point in saying that they are not in the same world is valid, not a critism of Hayleys voice, although she knows that many an up and coming Opera singer has wrecked her voice by the mid-twenties doing just what Hayley is doing, tackling arias beyond her voice capability. She has a foundation to assist singers in NZ, mentors them and contributes to their careers financially, only if they are serious about studying etc. something that she freely admits wasn`t her forte when she was young.

I think she admits a bit of foot in mouth in all this, but on the other hand someone asked her opinion and received what they asked for, the same with the Maori Issue.  Also on the issue of the John Farnham concert, one comment was taken out of all proportion, if people had followed the case, they would easily see why she sued and won the case.   I think we all get to a certain age when you just say and give your opinion and to hell with the consequences, unfortunately for Kiri her comments wing their way around the world, it could be a case of all publicity is good publicity.

I have followed her for about 30yrs, she is used I think to the tall poppy syndrome, she has had an amazing career, ongoing I might add and should be proud of it, I hope Hayley, Charlotte Church, Katherine Jenkins etc. can say the same 30yrs from now, I very much doubt it.

 

 

Dame Kiri has said that she didn't mean it as an attack on Hayley's voice. I suppose we have to take her word for it. But she has seemed odd toward Hayley before.

I think that you have missed reading most of my post. Hayley has had training from Dame Malvina Major with special reference to looking after her voice and goes to great lengths not to strain it or sing outside of her range. As I said she has altered some classical stuff she's done to avoid straining her voice and been hammered by the purists for it.

Her voice coach in London is Mary Hammond.

But she's not training for opera and there are only about two arias, I think she's ever done.

Dame Malvina Major the other New Zealand opera dame, has said that Dame Kiri didn't mean to offend but that she is inclined to "shoot from the hip".

I think you are right about the publicity though. On the Classicalx site were Hayley is the highest rated woman her rating has gone up, and I came across a recent poll about "who is your favourite Popera singer" and Hayley had 71%, Lesley Garret 15% and Jenkins 10%, so I don't think it will affect anyone's career. Someone has suggested they got together and planned it to give them both a boost! I doubt it, but that may be what it has done.

"Dame Kiri is an internationally renowned opera singer whereas I'm surprised that anyone outside of New Zealand has actually heard of that other chick.."

Alcy, you must be joking. She is massive in the UK and Japan, and a lot of Europe.
Will Martin is right that man New Zealanders don't know how famous she is.

Check Wikipedia or do a Google for her. She has an album nominated for album of
 the year in the current Classical Brits too. 

Hayley is much better known in the UK, Japan and Europe than any opera star. She 
has won two Japanese Grammies and features on the soundtrack of a Japanese film 
and a top ranking tV program. She is on the sound track of the Jeckel British TV 
show and has toured the US with Il Divo and Celtic Woman.

The critics have been kinder on the whole than the people in this thread. Most rated her as much superior to Charlotte Church "more vocal authenticity", etc, etc, and where more impressed with her voice: "The purity of her upper ranges defy belief", was one comment. Others mentioned how she got to the high notes so relatively easy. "Basic voice peels like the prettiest of bells..."

According to an Askmen writeup at one stage, her voice put her in the "pantheon 
of the great". 

I'm not saying I would agree with that - that is going a bit too far, but I think 
the people on this thread have been influenced by the Dame's comments.  

Dame Kiri, though a bit ungracious, knows of what she speaks. Bel canto singing is difficult, physical, and takes years of constant training. The Sarah Brightman's, Charlotte Church's and Hayleys of the world have no idea. All miked up and ready to go, they do one service in that they put classical repertoire in front of the masses. However, it is not true bel canto singing. That's what Dame Kiri did with the best of them - filling a theater with nothing but her own guts, lungs, and incredible technique and talent. That's real bel canto, and you can't fake it. Watch Dame Kiri as the Marschalin in the video recording of Strauss' Der Rosencavalier at Covent Garden. It will make you wet.

Anne, we agree that there is a difference between opera and other singing, although being on the pop circuit like Hayely and Kath Jenkins has its difficulties too. And I don't accept a hireachy in terms of increasing artistic merit as many classical purists do.

Leaving that aside, if all the Dame had been saying is what you think she was saying, that wouldn't be a problem. It would be like a rugby prop forward saying that backs don't realise how difficult it is to prop the scrum.

But there seems to be more to it than that if you look at the full interview and the Dame is not one of those who believes that popera does introduce people to a classical repetoire. She seems to have had special problems with Hayley as instanced from a couple of other incidents, and not just with Hayley. 

I am straying from he topic, but I do suspect she is more than ungracious. New Zealand is a very small country and the Dame has a very large ego. There has been at least one other incident which hasn't made the official bios where the difficulty Dame Kiri had was with someone from her own world of opera. The Dame very much likes the limelight to herself; although she may have shot herself in the foot on this occasion.

Then there were the times she slagged off the Maori race and the time she refused to ever sing in New Zealand again unless the acoustics of venues were improved.

I think it is fair to say that the respect she once had in New Zealand has diminished quite considerably over the years, and is at an all-time nadir.

And as some of us have tried to explain, Hayley Westenra is not popera in the way Charlie Church or even Sarah Brightman is. She has done about two arias and the odd Ave Maria and that is about the limit of her "classical" repetoire.

I think comparing the two ladies is like comparing apples to oranges. No, Haley is not an opera singer, and therefore is not in Kiri's world. I don't think that part was meant to be unkind. It is stating fact. I liked Haley's first album, but didn't find that I was interested any further. I do not like opera either. I think the press made a big deal out of something that was not meant the way it was presented. Time will tell.

What many may not know is that the opera community has been in a lather about the poperas for some time. Sir Thomas Allen did a rant about "pub singers" (Russell Watson?) a long time ago and the purist critics and opera fora are vitriolic about popera singers.

I used to buy into the whole Art Music business -- that pop was at the bottom, jazz a bit better because it was more complicated, classical higer still, and opera way up out of sight.

But this view is no longer held in most academic circles.

One of the many fallicies of the Art Music world is that opera singers are producing art but popular singers are just producing rubbish.

One justification for this was that the opera singers sung material from the great masters. But when the poperas sing the same stuff the opera people cannot allow that they are producing great art and have to discredit them. First it was because they had no training and later it is because they don't do arias, etc, properly.

It is even argued seriously on YouTube that Katherine Jenkins didn't really win a scholarship to the academy, but got a letter by mistake ment for someone else of the same name.

This is how desperate these people are to discredit the poperas.

But the problem runs deeper than they seem to realise. Taking a 16-year-old Westenra and saying her O Mio is not as good as the very best of opera singers is all very well.

But the Art Music argument - a fallacy - leads us to the untenable notion that the very worst opera singer, singing, say, Ave Maria, is producing High Art; whereas the very best popera singer singing it, is producing rubbish.

Attempts to draw a sharp line and pretend that there is a huge gulf between "classical" singers and "pop" singers won't wash. It never did and never will.

And is the problem that people like Hayley and her ilk blur that line (at least in the eyes of the public)? So to protect their precious notions of superioity the opera community has to somehow discredit them?

On YouTube, opera fora, and now from Dame Kiri the usual rant is that these people need microphones, have no technique, no formal training, and never last.

Whether they produce beautiful music seems to be irrelevant. They can't be considered true artists because they use microphones, have no technique, and don't last...

To my mind all three of these matters is irrelevant to what makes music art, but the opera people see it differently.