AfterEllen.com Debate Team: Would you date someone who isn’t out to her family?

this is hard! i totally can relate to Wil. i came from a conservative country but now that i moved away. i am starting to open up and be out. how closeted are we talking about?

 

 

"You can't pray away the gay." - Callie Torres

I obviously don't "love" closets yet I think for some people they're necessary (up until some point). I was lucky enough not to have to fear for my safety or risk losing my family's approval. Sadly, not everybody's in that position and I think alienating someone because of that reason shows a lack of empathy when we're the ones who are supposed to understand it the most.

Meanwhile, I totally understand how someone could walk away from a relationship because living in secret can't possibly be healthy, for anybody involved.

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http://riselikethetide.wordpress.com/

I have no problem with people not being out to their families, it's a personal choice. That said, unless they were completely estranged from their family, I think I'd find it hard to have a relationship with someone while pretending it's something else for the sake of their family. Nothing definite on this one....

I dunno. Can any of us help the relationship we have with our family? You can be out with your family,but are you really if they refuse to acknowledge it or even respond in way that indicates you're gay. That includes their refusal to let you bring gf home for holidays.

Saving Face was a okay movie. I watched it 2 Netflixs ago and had no desire to watch it more than once:( Wils mother knew she was gay ,because she showed up at Wils apt unannounced once and caught her with a girl. And that male family freind knewof her struggle with their culture.

If they lived far enough that you could be open in the city you both live is worth making an exception.

 

It depends, just like the last debate.  My girlfriend and I are very lucky to live in a part of the country even the world if you view it on a much larger scale, that we wouldn't be persecuted for being open.  My entire family (extended included) know that I am gay and openly out and most of them are okay.  I'm incredibly lucky that one set of grandparents are as liberal as they come and my grandpa is in a choir that consists of 50% gay men, while my Pop and I have had indepth conversations about it, he doesn't understand but he respects my life and likes my girlfriend. :D

I also have a wonderful relationship with my girl's parents, I love them like they were my own and have welcomed me with open arms into their family.  But it's not all peaches and cream, and I'm hurt at times that she refuses to ackowledge our relationship or life to her mother's side of the family.  However, she opened up to her dad's side over Christmas, she said you could hear a pin drop.  It's easier to deal with as time goes on, but we're fairly open and while I try not to pressure her, the real question is if she was ashamed of being who she is?  Sometimes there's a tinge of doubt.

When I'm with someone, I'm with them and not necessarily their family.  It's all circumstantial.  I've had friends that were physically removed from their homes and were left to fend for themselves or move to a more understanding family member's home.  Another friend in that same coming out was threatened to loose her college education if they were caught together. 

I guess if they were open with friend's at the very least, then I would be more willing to keep the relationship going.  That being said, I would hate to be the "friend" for the rest of our lives.  It's probably a generation and cultural thing, my good friends that are in their 40's have been together for over 15 years, and one of their parents thinks they're roommates still.  Probably denial.

P.S. I'm not voting, need's middle ground lol.

P.S.S.  Saving Face is one of my absolute favorite movies :)

As someone who hasn't come out to her whole family yet, I'd like to think it can work out.
Personally, if I were in a relationship that was important to me, and with a girl who truly supported me, I would be more likely to come out to my family.  
Also, seeing as though I am not out, I would definitely date someone who isn't. To say I wouldn't would just be incredibly hypocritical. 

Been there, done that... so I'll go for a big fat "maybe". ;)

I wouldn't if she still lived at home, I probably would if her family wasn't a big part of her everyday life. And I wouldn't visit with the family pretending I was just a friend because I found that pretty much unbearable. It hurts to have her parents talking about potential boyfriends while you're sitting next to her knowing you're the one whose arms she fell asleep in last night.

 

 

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Oh Trixie - wouldn't it be wonderful flying above the clouds, shooting stars out of our matching vaginas.

I say this as the one trying to date an open lesbian as a closeted not-straight woman at the time (i.e. still wasn't sure if I was bi or lesbian, but very sure I wasn't straight). It was the most infuriating relationship ever - for her, and for me.

oddly enough, i watched saving face for the first time yesterday!  weird.

anyway, this is such a tough call, i think.  obviously it depends on the relationship, and i agree with the other person of is the girlfriend out to her everyone else *but* her family?  or is she just completely closeted?  because i think there's a difference.

my girlfriend right now is super out in her social life (and possibly at work i think).  she's on the dyke march committee with me, she was the president of her college's GSA when she was in college, and the majority of our social circle is gay ladies, etc etc.  so in her own life she's very out.  

but with her parents, while they know about her, no one *ever* talks about it.  when she talks to her parents on the phone, if she's with me she'll just say she's with a friend, or hanging out with a friend, etc etc.  i went home with her for easter, but solely as her friend, and her reasoning to her parents for me coming with her was the distance of me to my family (which, yes, the midwest (where i'm from) and the east coast (where we are now) are very far apart, so it wasn't all a lie).  but i had to pretend to just be her friend, even had to sort of make up a reason as to how i even met her in the first place, etc etc.

but my parents know all about her, and always tell me to say hi to her when i'm on the phone with them, and are excited to meet her at the end of june.  so.

i wouldn't stop dating or loving her, but it is tough to be dating someone who can't tell her parents who i really am.  and yeah, okay, sucks for me to have to be lied about, but mostly i hate that she's in that situation at all.  i hate having to see her put her very proud self into the closet around them.  it's unfortunate, and i feel awful for her, but if she feels like it's what she has to do, it's not my place to stop her.  i only hope that one day her family can come to terms with it and let it be open, and she won't have to hide anymore.

and that's my input.

What about those of us who aren't close to our parents at all?  I haven't spoken to my father in over 10 years and my mother and I don't really talk about personal things.  I'm out to my sister, who I'm close with, but what my mother/father have to say about anything really doesn't cross my mind. 

I guess it depends on how close my boyfriend/girlfriend is to their family.  I don't like the idea of consciously hiding my relationship from anyone. 

My first serious relationship was with a girl who wasn't out yet to her family. She still isn't, she decided that dating men was easier ...

at first, I can totally understand the fear and patience required to come out. But after 2 years, I was still 'the best friend who was always there' to her aunts, grandmothers etc.

Her mother knew - and her sister, but that was it.

 The moment her grandmother asked me at the dinner table if I knew when my girlfriend would have a boyfriend again, broke my heart ...

 

So from now on I only want to date openly gay woman ...

Bring 'em on! 

 

I'm in the closet to my parents / relatives. Like Wil, I'm only out to friends. In my case, I don't think my closet state matters to my ex-gfs and girls i date. This is because I am independent of my parents and relatives. My parents are in a different citiy - plane ride away and my relatives are in a different country. I hardly go home to see family on holidays.

I am also open to coming out with my family should the opportunity arise. Like what Feylamia said, it hurts too much to pretend that gf is just a friend. I don't lie to my family.. I just don't tell them everything. Haha.

 BTW.. I love the movie.. Saving Face!

If we were still in school then I would totally understand, because she would be financially dependent on her family. But if she was on her own (financially) I'd expect her to come out to her family. If she didn't, then I would just assume that our relationship wasn't that serious.

I'm not sure of which option I should choose. It wouldn't automatically be over, and I wouldn't allow myself to love a girl that was in the closet (i'm afraid of getting hurt).

I think that I'm making this way too complicated lol.

I just know that I don't ever want to go back to sneaking around, like I did with my first girlfriend. Sure, it was somewhat exciting in the beginning, but by the end of it, it was very stressful for the both of us before we came out to our respective families. After it was done, I was so relieved.

I could date someone who isn't out, if they will eventually come out to their family. If they have no such intention, I would seriously doubt it could work out in the long run. I would not be comfortable pretending to be "just a friend" ever again. That said, I know how hard the process of coming out can be, so I wouldn't dismiss anyone for not having reached that point yet.

Something I felt very strongly in my first relationship, was that when it got serious, I really wanted people to know. I hadn't felt like that when I was single. Maybe that is the case for many closeted people? I found it easier to come out to my parents when I could tell them, "I'm in love with X, and we're together" rather than talking directly about my sexuality. It came up afterward, obviously, but I found being in a relationship to be my strongest catalyst to come out.

I have had both types of relationships, and hopefully this current love of mine will be my last one.  However, if for some reason that my girl comes to her senses, and I find myself single again, I can safely say that the new GF would have to be out and open to at least her friends and family.  Work is a whole other issue and I live in Texas, and we do not have job safety yet.  So we could be fired from our jobs if for no other reason than for being gay or lesbian.  That's why I wouldn't expect that she be at at work.  However, I do expect that she will be out to her friends and family.

Now, the friends and/or family don't have to accept it but they do have to know.  And, if we did visit, then they would have to allow us to sleep in the same bed or I wouldn't go.  If your family sees your relationship as something less than their own hetro relationships, then gay rights will never move forward.  How can we expect legal rights, when we cannot stand up to those around us and expect to be treated equally and with respect?

I am 42 (well, almost!) and feel that everyone deserves love, but you have to stand up proudly to get it.  It took me a while to learn this as this lesson is a slowburn.  However, I would never go back and dating a woman who is not out is going back in my opinion.

It's a bit tricky for me so I haven't cast me vote yet. When I was young I already showed some "signs" (as my parents call it) of me going to be gay. So when I came out to them, it seems like they're not surprised at all. And same thing as with my girlfriend, her family was more open to our relationship.

So in other words, I will not vote for now. Kinda hard for me to choose :-)

I would not date someone in the closet.  I've done secret relationships, and I feel I deserve more.  I'm at an age where people I date should be independent, so they should have the freedom to come out if they choose to do so without losing their home, financial stability, etc.  I really can't see any excuse for an adult not to come out (except maybe at work, depending on the job, etc.).  I know this sounds priviliged (and probably is), but I am an activist and have gone through coming out in all areas in my life, and I feel visibility is important, so I can't see myself attracted to someone who doesn't share those values.

You can't help who you fall for - in my case, I'm out to all my friends and at work. I'm more or less independent from my family but I do see my mother like once a week or once every two weeks. She doesn't live that far - I'm out to one of my brothers and my mother knows but we don't talk about it, I think that's just a matter of time and in time things always change. I'm not out to my three other brothers, mainly because I don't speak or see them as often and plus my family is pretty religious (hence why me and my mother don't talk about it, it results in bible verses going back and forth!)

So I guess it comes down to what type of family you're dealing with and what issues that person has with their family. I like to be independent and I think I would prefer if someone I was dating was as well. 

But it all comes down to the personal.

"Find a spot for us to spark, conversation, verbal elation, stimulation"

I'd prefer that my girlfriend was out to her parents, but if she's not comfortable with it, I wouldn't just leave her because of it. I think it's an entirely personal choice and I'd totally get over it if she was closeted. 

Go here for my view on all things lesbian: http://allthingslesbeau.blogspot.com

Well my girl's is not out to her family, i'm not out either, so we're good. But even when i do come out(Cause i plan to) I won't presure her to do the same. She can stay in her little closet if she wants i'll be right there with her.

 

True feelings can never be put into words.
therfore when you can't explain how you feel about someone that's when you know..

Saving Face is one of my favorite movies and today saw it again for about the ten thousandth time. I could totally relate to Wil--I'm not out to my parents yet. And yeah, I would date a girl that isn't out to her family as long as her reason for not being out doesn't have to do with shame about being gay.  She also has to plan on coming out eventually if we're gonna have a serious long-term relationship; I can't imagine keeping that kind of relationship a secret.

Well I'm not out to my family and been pressured by my ex girlfriends about that but there's nothing I could do.

I came out to them when I was 20 but they made me live the worst nightmare ever so I just told them that was not true. (they believed me..!!)

Being out to my parents would mean stop having any kind of relationship with them. I live far from them they know nothing about my personal life and I think they just don't want to.

It is sometimes hard for those who have supportive parents to undertsand that some parents can be really horrible and homophobic in the worst way ever. They think we just fear parent's reactions but it can be more complicated than that. 

 

pretty much every girl ive dated was in the closet
and too be honest i really didn't mind

for me, im in a relationship with that one person, not their family. i really dont care if they like me, hate me or even know i exist. i mean, its great if they do like me but id rather be happy and have my gf in the closet than out the closet and extremely unhappy cos of shit parents. 

if that made any sense at all :D

 

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twitter = megsooo

I dated a girl while neither of us was out and we were both living at home, and I wouldn't do it again. I didn't mind if my parents found out and eventually wound up telling them, but the other girl was terrified of her parents finding out because of their stance on homosexuality. She genuinely thought they would throw her out. She was out to the other side of her family, to her coworkers, and to all of her friends, but when I went to her house, I was introduced as a friend, we had to lie about how we met, and we tensed every time someone came near her room, when for God's sake, all we were doing was holding hands and watching a movie.

If the family wasn't a vital part of everyday life (and if she was out to the people who were in her everyday life), I would consider dating a woman who wasn't fully out. But I don't want to live with the fear of accidentally outing someone again, and I definitely don't want to lie straight to family members' faces again.

Wow this is tough. I've been deep in this as I was the one not out to my family. I knew they wouldn't be accepting, and I was right. But my relationship was definitely strained with time limits and the fear of being seen together loomed for us. I was scared for myself since I was very close with my parents and didn't want to lose their love and friendship and she was scared for me and that her traditional Thai mother would disapprove. In the end, we both came out and live together happily now, and our parents still disapprove but we just don't acknowledge it much. My relationship with my parents has suffered but my girlfriend and I are happy now and our relationship has grown tremendously. So I guess my answer is that yes you can be in a relationship with someone who isn't out to their families, but it can only realistically last for a short period of time. Eventually it puts too much of a strain on a relationship and it is either come out or break up. But you have to be ready for the ramifications, and you have to question, is the means worth the end. And for me it was.

I guess it depends, how deep in the closet they are and how much PDA they are willing to give me in front of strangers.

 

 

"The quality of an individual is reflected in the standards they set for themselves!!!"

I love Saving Face. I have watched it tons of times, totally relating to Wil. I'm Asian and have been praying for the day when my mom would say "you know I liked Vivian" and "what about that shirt?"

I voted for being out. I was in the closet for the first few months of my relationship and it was tough. It was tough coming out to my family too. They really did kick me out of the house. Thank goodness I was in college and only had 2 more years to go. Which I did with the help of my girlfriendand working my butt off. Even 10+ years later, my family still doesn't talk about it (strong Catholics) and yet when I go home for family events I get to take home more left overs than one person could eat. It hasn't been until this past Thanksgiving that my now wife, was invited for diner. We are still trying to work through this. But as hard and its been for my family, it's been tough on my relationship, but we've gotten through it.

Her family on the other hand loves me and has since the begining. We deal :)

I'm an observant Jew. If I want to date within my religion (and I do), it is certainly very different from dating within The Lesbian Community(tm), and I certainly can't pass judgment on someone who doesn't want to let her parents know.

Being out to your parents is a privilege. People who have that privilege need to recognize that is a privilege. Not everyone is as lucky as they are. If you think it says something about their lack of committment to you, please recognize that you're dating her and she's dating you; you're not dating her family.

My family is rather big - 5 brothers, 7 sisters - and I am very close to my family. Unfortunately, they are also very religious. When I do come out to them all association will be cut off, without a doubt. That is a huge step and something that will change my life forever. It's never cut and dry. Though it's incredibly straining sometimes I'd like to think the relationship will last. Thankfully, my girlfriend is super supportive.

I wouldn't rule it out right at the beginning, because who knows. Also, it depends on if they just aren't out yet but do intend to, or if they literally intend to be closeted their entire life, as one of my good friends does. The latter I could not deal with in a very serious relationship. It would feel like she was picking them over me, and I feel like that would affect our relationship.

I would give it a try, yes. While I am of the opinion that being out is usually better in the long run, I also realize that people need to come out on their own schedule, not mine.

When I was younger, I dated girls in the closet. I was also in the closet. When a person is ready, then she'll tell everybody. In the beginning everything is difficult, and it is understandable to hold back. But after some years in the closet - yes, then a person must decide to take the step out. Sometimes it's easier than expected. For me it was difficult, it was the worst thing ever happened to me. Later they accepted and we talk now.

So I understand the need to be in the closet untill a person feels strong enough to meet the wall of bad feelings.

I am married (legally) to a woman from a traditional society and let me tell you they know who I am to their child. But my name is not mentioned and if I am brought up the subject is ignored.  Traditional means sometimes being able to ignore something right there in your face.  They just refuse to talk about it or see it. We are finally having a wedding ceremony to go along with our legal paper work and they won't come they refuse to hear about it.  This has been going on for 8 years.  So just because one is not in a closet doesn't mean the parents will accept you or her.

This topic really strikes a chord with me, as someone who is just now in the process of coming out. Early on, I decided I wouldn't tell my parents about my newly accepted sexuality until I actually became involved with a woman I wanted to tell them about. Just because I figure it's easier to have the "I've met someone wonderful" conversation, as opposed to the "I have these funny feelings" conversation.

But of course I worry that if I fall for someone who's out and proud, she will be turned off by my semi-closet situation. It's comforting to see so many people say that it would depend on the individual relationship for them. (And of course, all those who picked the first option, I totally understand where you're coming from.)

 

 

I think it's a difficult call and you can't help who you fall for, but we owe it to ourselves and our partners to accept the best relationship possible. Who wants to live a life in which you lie to people around you and suppress your natural feelings for each other in public? It's unhealthy and damaging and is part of a sad legacy of feeling shame about our normal sexual orientation. Most of us were brought up with this sense of shame, explicitly or not, and it takes a personal journey to overcome it. 

 

While it is common and understandable to be in the closet while still young and coming to terms with one's sexuality, I think it is far less desirable to conduct hidden relationships as an adult. At some point one has to have the courage to live as an adult in the world and not expect a partner they love to hide themselves away when they are deemed inconvenient. We can only start to be accepted as gay/bi/queer to the people around us if we are visible to them and accept ourselves completely. It's about showing self-worth on the part of the closeted person as well as showing respect to the person who is out. 

 

If you really want the relationship then embrace it in its entirety. Why should you compromise on this – this is your life? The out partner should be a source of support in completing this journey and not complicit in an ongoing game of deceit, which ultimately could put too much strain on the relationship.

 

This is an easy question for me and no debate is required. I was in this situation and in the end the secrecy and lies just lead to hurt feelings and guilt that ultimately damaged the relationship. There is only so much bending to make allowances before you break.

Ultimately, if there is no growth and/or movement to them coming out and recognising you as their significant other, there is no future in the relationship. Is their fear more important than their love and respect for you? That is the question you have to ask yourself and then choose if you can live with their decision and to remain closeted with them.

To me, it is about boundaries and respect. Not just with your partner, but with individual members of your family, especially your parents. Where is the love and respect for your partner if you only want to keep them as your dirty little secret? Where is the love and respect for your family if you can't share with them who you are? Where is the love and respect from your family towards you as their child and as your own unique person? All of these relationships need to be reconciled for any one of them to work and be healthy. Tough times and being honest with yourself and others lead to character building, growth and the development of a healthy relationship. Keeping the peace and taking the road of denial for anyone leads to stagnation and unhappiness.

My apologies for being blunt, but having lived this, this is how I now feel.

Too many people have died for GLBT Rights for me to have patience with someone in the closet. I mean that for a relationship. I wouldn't stop being someone's friend because of it, in fact I would try to help them come to terms with coming out.